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Author Topic:   Is there a border dividing life from non-life?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 68 of 132 (131343)
08-07-2004 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
08-07-2004 11:57 AM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
But the conditions that bring us hurricanes always bring us hurricanes.
Mutations in living critters though is different.The only difference that I can see between living and non-living systems is that unique variation.
Hurricanes are different from one another even though we can recognize a hurricane by pre-determined criteria such as wind speed and damage but there is no more anyway to predict the individual aspects such as cloud height,barometric pressures and diameter in the eye,velocity of the winds of the eye wall,influence of el nino etc.
Each hurricane is a unique variation on the general designation of the classification hurricane.
The conditions that bring us human beings always bring us human beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 08-07-2004 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-07-2004 1:30 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 70 of 132 (131354)
08-07-2004 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
08-07-2004 1:30 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
And hurricanes were once gentle breezes.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by lfen, posted 08-14-2004 10:19 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 73 of 132 (133952)
08-14-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by lfen
08-14-2004 10:19 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
Ifen
Therein lies a great fault with philosophy and that is the endless questions without a formal means of acting upon the questions to check if they have any substance of reality or if they are merely for the sport of speculation.
The aim of my question is to delve into the limitations imposed upon us by our convention of naming things while ignoring that the real world has no such imperative.The border itself seems to be an illusion simply because our consciousness is one of the aspects we grant ourselves as part of being "alive".However we have no evidence of consciousness in most animals.Hell just try to define what is meant by consiousness.This is going to be a seperate topic that I will try to get started.

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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 75 of 132 (133962)
08-14-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by lfen
08-14-2004 10:45 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
Ifen
Border as a word tends to call to mind the lines on a map. But the border of the land and water is a transition zone. The borders between living and dead are likewise transition zones.
So will you accept that though there are no discrete borders there are zones that lie between what we clearly recognize as alive and dead?
I would accept that yes when you can tell me how you would determine where water ended and land began {which I feel can be done} AND where living things end and non-living things begin.{which has yet to be satisfactorily accomplished} Non-living is not necessarily the same as dead.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 78 of 132 (136742)
08-25-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by JRTjr
08-25-2004 3:27 AM


Re: Life: 1That property or quality
jrtjr1
By the way, Taking into account all of the criteria mentioned above {in the definition}, show me some object that is not Alive and yet exhibits all of the specified criteria.
We are not stating that life does not exist but,rather, how does the border actually come about.You see here in your definition.
the cellular biochemical activity or processes of an organism, characterized by the ingestion of nutrients, the storage and use of energy, the excretion of wastes, growth, reproduction, ect.
If we look at each of these characteristics {i.e. ingestion,storage of energy, etc} we find that they are themselves can be explained in terms of chemistry and physics.Together,they can form an organism, but individually they are not what we would call life.The whole is not greater than the sum of its parts.
You can look at a person or a tree and say they are alive but at what point in our investigation do we determine that life is different from a complex interplay of chemical elements under control of the four forces of nature? In other words is there an actual difference between a rock and a human that is more than a difference in the complexity of its constituents?
I hope this helps to clarify rather than confuse.Please digest it and bring up any concerns you wish to express.

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 Message 80 by NosyNed, posted 08-25-2004 11:44 AM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 85 of 132 (136894)
08-25-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by NosyNed
08-25-2004 11:44 AM


Re: an important disagreement
NosyNed
"Life" may be difficult to define in the same way that consciousness is because they are both emergent properties.
Agreed,however,are emergent properties not the result of the result of simple laws that in the course of interacting in the world through the vaious forces that we are aware of produce these phenomena that we marvel at? Is consciousness something greater or is it an inherent property of matter under the proper impetus of these basic forces?

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 Message 80 by NosyNed, posted 08-25-2004 11:44 AM NosyNed has replied

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 Message 86 by NosyNed, posted 08-26-2004 2:01 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 88 by 1.61803, posted 08-26-2004 5:25 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 89 of 132 (137239)
08-26-2004 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by 1.61803
08-26-2004 5:25 PM


Re: an important disagreement
1.61803
I guess I am guilty of grasping on to anything that will keep me out of the pit of nilhism.
This would make an excellent topic.Why should we avoid the void? LOL.
I think that it is a mistake to feel impending doom as an albatross around the neck and make the change to living life deliberately and allow the end of things to come in its own good time.It is after all the best if not only revenge.
I know a couple of years ago I went into a deep funk {midlife crisis I presume} and couldn't believe so much time had passed in my life and so many things were undone. Like the song says "ten years have got behind you". It is a part of the human condition to think that life has passed you by when you are caught up in the rat race day to day of life chasing silly things.The reality is if you sit down and start to write down the things you have accomplished and the places you have been people you have met etc.it becomes apparent that there really is a huge amount of experience that a person can cram into a life.
I suppose the point of it all is to run your race and pass the baton.
I wish to share with you a thing I read today in the magazine Free Inquiry.
In the story the writer is talking about his father who, after he passed on, became the crux of an ensuing battle with his aunts who demanded that he not be cremated but rather be buried and have a funeral service etc. A similar thing happened when his own wife died of cancer and the in-laws shunned him for his position on having her cremated.
Anyway the thing that got my attention most from the story was a piece of paper his Dad had given him before dying and that his wife treasured so much she had it made into a plaque. This is what it said.
What delightful hosts they are-Love and Laughter!
Lingeringly I turn away at this late hour,yet glad
They have not withheld from me their high hospitality.
So at the door I pause to press their hands once more
And say,"So fine a time!Thank you both...and goodbye.
To me that is the epitome of a high life and a graceful departure.
Later.

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 Message 88 by 1.61803, posted 08-26-2004 5:25 PM 1.61803 has replied

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 101 of 132 (448867)
01-15-2008 3:03 PM


Resurrection of topic due to interest
It seems a few questions have come up in the present debates concerning the life-non life issue and since this was an interesting thread at one point I thought perhaps it could be discussed again in order to prevent off topic drift in other threads.
I would sure enjoy letting some of the newer members to make a comment and see if we can get any further understanding in this subject.
Here is the opening post.
sidelined writes:
I hold that there is no actual border between the two and that it is a matter of bias on the part of we conscious humans. If we assume that life is a continual progression in complexity then everything that any organism does is a result of chemical elements increasing in capability and,under the influence of natural forces,changing the level of interaction into novel forms that again increase the range of capabilities into complexity.Whatever atoms can do relays into what we can do.The border would appear to be an illusion and this would explain the difficulty that occurs in trying to pin it down. We have a good working knowledge of the forces and the atom itself and I believe that over the next decade there should be sufficient understanding of biology to show the connections within the complexity.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
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