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Author Topic:   What is the evolutionairy theory on the Giraffe?
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 70 (1005)
12-20-2001 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by mark24
12-19-2001 6:38 PM


mark24:
Firstly, a valve is anything that can restricts flow in one or both directions. A small flap which bends one way & less so in another would have the ability to restrict flow in one direction. This is true REGARDLESS OF HOW SMALL it is. If it proved to be an advantage then nat. sel. takes over.
John Paul:
Please show that random mutations culled by natural selection can build such a thing. You are guilty of oversimplifying living organisms. That is the card that evolutionists play all too often. It is NOT as simple as having a longer neck or valve control but what builds these. The onus is upon those making the claim to substantiate it. We're waiting...
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John Paul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 6:38 PM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by joz, posted 12-20-2001 10:02 AM John Paul has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 70 (1007)
12-20-2001 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by John Paul
12-20-2001 9:15 AM


And I`m waiting for your evidence of limits to NS and RM over on that other thread so please feel free to stop being a hypocrite and drop by and supply some....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by John Paul, posted 12-20-2001 9:15 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by John Paul, posted 12-20-2001 10:12 AM joz has not replied

John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 70 (1011)
12-20-2001 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by joz
12-20-2001 10:02 AM


joz I gave you examples- what you have not done is to show RM & NS can build anything. That is what the ToE states. Even if recombinations, duplications etc,. are included in as random mutations, you still have nothing but inference from phylogeny and paleontology (which assume the ToE is real). So where is the biological or genetic evidence?
Talk about being a hypocrite- stop whining and provide the evidence that is required to substantiate your pet theory.
------------------
John Paul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by joz, posted 12-20-2001 10:02 AM joz has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 65 of 70 (1035)
12-20-2001 1:01 PM


Putting on my moderator hat...
I don't know that it's that relevant to the discussion what John Paul meant when he mentioned a 2000 year-old Bible.
Anyone who wants to debate who's a hypocrite can open a new thread at the Coffee House Forum.
--Percy

Fred Williams
Member (Idle past 4856 days)
Posts: 310
From: Broomfield
Joined: 12-17-2001


Message 66 of 70 (1039)
12-20-2001 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by mark24
12-19-2001 6:38 PM


quote:
Firstly, a valve is anything that can restricts flow in one or both directions. A small flap which bends one way & less so in another would have the ability to restrict flow in one direction. This is true REGARDLESS OF HOW SMALL it is. If it proved to be an advantage then nat. sel. takes over. Lucky mutations, yup. But then Ive got a lot to choose from.
This is a story, Mark. You admitted that without selection this would be implausible. Selection cannot do much until there is a functioning valve. Even if I grant you a partially functioning valve, how many lucky mutations would be needed to produce this primitive valve? Would you agree that 10 mutations would be too few? What about 100? How many are you willing to commit to as the worst case number of mutations needed before selection can recognize the valve as useful? (note that there are actually many valves involved, not just one, but I'm keeping it simple for now)
[This message has been edited by Fred Williams, 12-20-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 6:38 PM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 12-20-2001 6:36 PM Fred Williams has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 67 of 70 (1043)
12-20-2001 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Fred Williams
12-20-2001 5:48 PM



Fred Williams writes:
Even if I grant you a partially functioning valve, how many lucky mutations would be needed to produce this primitive valve?
Valves had already evolved before the giraffe neck's need for them. We possess such valves ourselves in our legs, only they're in veins instead of arteries. When these valves malfunction it becomes evident as varicose veins.
The appearance of these valves in arteries in the giraffe's neck only required a minor mutation moving a valve gene from a leg vein to a neck artery.
Of course, this doesn't answer your question, but merely moves it back in time. As land creatures evolved longer and longer legs, how did the valves making taller animals possible evolve?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Fred Williams, posted 12-20-2001 5:48 PM Fred Williams has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Fred Williams, posted 12-21-2001 6:45 PM Percy has not replied

Fred Williams
Member (Idle past 4856 days)
Posts: 310
From: Broomfield
Joined: 12-17-2001


Message 68 of 70 (1092)
12-21-2001 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
12-20-2001 6:36 PM


quote:
The appearance of these valves in arteries in the giraffe's neck only required a minor mutation moving a valve gene from a leg vein to a neck artery.
I realize you are trying to invoke homeobox mutation. It’s a nice try, but it won’t cut it. For one, the pressure gradients would be dissimilar. If you are familiar with fluid mechanics, the pressure required to pump something upward increases an amount that is more than proportional to the increase in height. Ie it’s logarithmic. You can’t expect the correct pressure valve to just pop into place. Another problem is the fact that there exists a labyrinth of these valves in the Giraffe’s neck. There is no way to conceive of all these valves being recognized independently by selection, which is what you are implying. I’m trying to determine how much luck is needed. How many mutations are you willing to grant that are not going to be recognized by selection? You know you are grasping at straws when you try to say one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 12-20-2001 6:36 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by mark24, posted 12-21-2001 7:46 PM Fred Williams has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 69 of 70 (1094)
12-21-2001 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Fred Williams
12-21-2001 6:45 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
I realize you are trying to invoke homeobox mutation. It’s a nice try, but it won’t cut it. For one, the pressure gradients would be dissimilar. If you are familiar with fluid mechanics, the pressure required to pump something upward increases an amount that is more than proportional to the increase in height. Ie it’s logarithmic. You can’t expect the correct pressure valve to just pop into place. Another problem is the fact that there exists a labyrinth of these valves in the Giraffe’s neck. There is no way to conceive of all these valves being recognized independently by selection, which is what you are implying. I’m trying to determine how much luck is needed. How many mutations are you willing to grant that are not going to be recognized by selection? You know you are grasping at straws when you try to say one.
Nobody saying that the Giraffe had a long neck, THEN it got valves. As the Giraffes neck lengthened, the valves were selected for by ns. based on fitness of mutation. As both I & percy have alluded the valves pre- existed. What was required was a mutation leading to developement of those valves in arteries & not just veins. Those valves clearly would't work for a modern Giraffe, but then no ones saying they appeared in a modern Giraffe. Venal valves in arteries would be better than no valves at all in a proto Giraffe. Valves would evolve alongside the neck.
How many mutations would you grant for a valve? Please give reasons including references to rm, ns , genetic drift, recombination, & lateral gene transfer.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-21-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Fred Williams, posted 12-21-2001 6:45 PM Fred Williams has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 70 of 70 (1312)
12-26-2001 11:35 PM


I was just looking at the photo of the giraffes, on the home page. What a goofy looking animal! I think this might be evidence that God has a sense of humor.
On the other hand, there's that profoundly beautiful creature:
http://i15.yimg.com/15/c19cdc1/h/bcd79987/moose.jpg
Moose
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Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 12-27-2001]

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