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Author Topic:   Is there a border dividing life from non-life?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 132 (104675)
05-01-2004 11:47 PM


I hold that there is no actual border between the two and that it is a matter of bias on the part of we conscious humans. If we assume that life is a continual progression in complexity then everything that any organism does is a result of chemical elements increasing in capability and,under the influence of natural forces,changing the level of interaction into novel forms that again increase the range of capabilities into complexity.Whatever atoms can do relays into what we can do.The border would appear to be an illusion and this would explain the difficulty that occurs in trying to pin it down. We have a good working knowledge of the forces and the atom itself and I believe that over the next decade there should be sufficient understanding of biology to show the connections within the complexity.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 3 of 132 (104688)
05-02-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
05-01-2004 11:57 PM


I am sorry Asgara however I was unable to locate it after I left to deal with work and returned. I even clicked on my name to try to locate it under recent posts and found nothing. I apologize and grovel abjectly before your will. {meekly}Be gentle.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 7 of 132 (104741)
05-02-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by TechnoCore
05-02-2004 3:06 PM


Technocore
Knowing how semi-condoctors within a computer function can't tell you anything about how Internet Explorer works.
Yes,but the Internet Explorer is dependent for its existence upon the physical operation of the semi conductor and not vice versa.
The point I was trying to make is that we have the need to define life. Nature however is under no such obligation.
I agree that life is a continual pregression of complexity
Actually,I was proposing that the entire universe is a continual progrssion of complexity that began with the Origin of the universe and via stages of cooling we progress from one level of interaction between the fundemental constituents of the universe to form greater levels of phenomena all the way through the formation of atoms and the properties they possess.
It is a consequence of our investigation into the nature of the forces that govern atoms that we have learned how the world actually operates.It is not simply life that is gaining in complexity but that which we call life {however you wish to define it} is merely a step removed in complexity from that which we would call non-life{again as you wish to define it}.It is our human tendency to categorize that is in error.there is no life opposed to non-life but simply a greater complexity with a greater range of abilities.
For example Hydrogen and Oxygen combine to form water that has properties not apparent in the individual elements.They do this according to well known laws of chemistry that in turn reduce to physical interaction.We do not consider water as alive {although some cultures have indeed done so} So if we look at all the incredible properties of water and the changes it can go through as different forces come to bear upon it is it so much of a leap to insist that as elements combine and mix and heat and cool and are bombardeed by various levels of radiation new and multiple sources of complexity will appear that are not at first apparent?
Perhaps I ramble too far from the concept. If we view the process from simplest to most complex we see the pattern emerge.Our usual way of tackling it is to start with ourselves,call this life and go backwards trying to find a border which IMHO does not exist

"We cannot define anything precisely! If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, 'You don't know what you are talking about!' The second one says 'What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?', and so on."

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 11 of 132 (111567)
05-30-2004 1:22 PM


I am going to bump this topic so that other can input their own views and further advance how we might resolve this issue.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 13 of 132 (111578)
05-30-2004 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
05-30-2004 1:41 PM


Chioptera
Another way would be to allow each field of research to use their own definitions so that they can talk about life and non-life in ways that are relevant to their field
Is it not a problem though,since research in one field is now growing into other areas,that definitions in one will oppose definitions in another? As I proposed,if we view it as all one phenomena,complexity of varying levels,then we do not run into confusion over issues outside of science. Life as a word is fraught with far too many unsubstantiated biases to lend itself to clarity of explanation between individual scientists in related but distinct fields of research.
LOL I do not want to come off as sounding as though my proposal MUST be adopted or else but I find it especially useful for non-scientists such as myself in eliminating the seperation between the progression of knowledge starting in physics and chemistry {themselves already bridged in physical chemistry} and proceeding up through the levels of complexity into consciousness found in higher animals.
Thanks for your input Chioptera.Hanging upside down as your kind does must be good for supplying the brain with the necessities for thinking straight. LOL
This message has been edited by sidelined, 05-30-2004 01:15 PM

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 16 of 132 (111621)
05-30-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
05-30-2004 4:18 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
Define waste.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 132 (111627)
05-30-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
05-30-2004 8:14 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
Plants absorb carbondioxide and release oxygen as a wast product. Animals take in oxygen and release carbon dioxide as a waste product.
Unfortunately this breaks the idea of it being a waste product and we are back where we started from. To say otherwise we must define elemental oxygen as a waste product.Thereforev any process that gave off oxygen as a consequence of reaction would fall in definition of life.Damn I really thought you had something there though.It goes to show the difficulty inherent in defining life though.
I must take my wife and child to dinner as they are starving so I will continue this in about 3 hours.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 8:14 PM jar has replied

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 20 of 132 (111649)
05-30-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-30-2004 8:56 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
What differentiates the living from non-living is the continuation of the process.
That is a good point.Do cells excrete waste to the enviroment and if that waste is always utilized by something simpler and simpler until the breakdown process is no longer biology but chemistry is it in fact waste? Or do we now have to look at the whole system of individual organisms together as life as opposed to individual life? This is going to take some time for me to digest {along with my dinner}.
We will continue this soon, big guy.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 46 of 132 (130727)
08-05-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
08-03-2004 12:01 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
When snow flakes form they can take on an infinite variety of shapes
Sorry old boy but this is not the case.Snowflakes form their six-sided shape as aresult of molecular forces within the water.Check out the basics at this Caltech site. Snowflakes and Snow Crystals

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 49 of 132 (130737)
08-05-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
08-05-2004 2:41 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
They establish new sets of rules and combinations.
Yes but these rules all reduce down ultimately to the same rules that govern the formation of snowflakes so this cannot be something that is a seperate condition.
Even though,say, a leaf can do vastly more things than a rock{as far as "leaf" things go it is horribly inadequate when it comes to dealing with what rocks must endure} this is not because new rules have come into being but that the rules that exist at the atomic level are now involved in a greater level of interplay among a greater number of compounds and solutions that are governed by those atomic forces.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 08-05-2004 02:21 PM

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 53 of 132 (130830)
08-05-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
08-05-2004 5:17 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
In non-living matter you always see the same results. With mutations we are seeing new things
Yes but mutations are the result of either physical or biochemical alterations upon chromosomes or genes which means that we still have not determined the life/non-life border but merely subdivided the levels of structure that make up the ways in which mutations occur. Is a gene alive only if it mutates? What is it when not mutating if not a collection of biochemicals that is again just different from its simpler chemical constituents in its level of complexity? Are the physical or biochemical mutagens alive? It still seems that there is no actual way to seperate the result we call life from the mechanisms that constitute it.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 55 of 132 (130842)
08-05-2004 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
08-05-2004 7:44 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
I think it is more in the capability. Non-living systems do not have the ability to mutate.
Well I do not know if that is the case. If we expose iron to an oxygen enviroment then we have the formation of iron oxide. Would this not be an instance of mutation in a "non -living " element? If not why not? Would a reaction of zinc with hydrochloric acid constitute a similar change? Is the release of free energy through hydrolysis in the nucleotide ATP which powers our muscles?
That we cannot tell what will happen in living things is just a matter of the complexity of the biology present.Until we had the means to investigate we did not know why iron formed an oxide.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 57 of 132 (130853)
08-05-2004 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
08-05-2004 8:09 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
It is entirely predictable while the random mutations that happen in living things are unpredictable
No can you predict where the rust will first form on two identical pieces of iron? Probaly no more so than we can predict where a mutation will occur.
Mutations lead to new results but not necessarily unique ones.Eyes have evolved several times throughout evolutionary history so this is not necessarily so.Enzymes are subject to mutation {Institute for Human Immunology and Protein Therapeutics – Institute for Human Immunology and Protein Therapeutics} are they alive?

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 59 of 132 (130861)
08-05-2004 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
08-05-2004 8:44 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
I do not think that is the case since it is my understanding that some mutations have had there locations delineated and mutations at these sites are evidently repeatable and therefore would seem to be predictible.
There are databases available to track these mutations and I have a website located here http://www.genomic.unimelb.edu.au/mdi/dblist/glsdb.html#A
It would appear that they are making headway in specifying the locations of the mutations in relation to their effects on humans and I am sure further work will substantiate some of this.We must wait and see I suppose.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 08-05-2004 08:39 PM

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 61 of 132 (130868)
08-05-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
08-05-2004 9:39 PM


Re: Do non-living systems
jar
Certainly but what is probably lacking is enough data to narrow it down to at least a ballpark area for each mutation,again we at one time did not know how rust formed or how stars produced energy but all things are easy in hindsite.It may well be that the complexity is too great to catalog in order to see the pattern and because of this never fully resolve the issue.
I also mentioned that enzymes mutate yet are they considered alive?

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