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Author Topic:   Damn fig tree!
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6497 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 15 (129871)
08-02-2004 8:52 PM


Jesus entered Jerusalem and went to the temple. He looked around at everything, but since it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the Twelve. The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it. On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there
When evening came, they went out of the city. In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. (Mark 11:11-22)
And again here....
When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"
The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee." Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling dovesAnd he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.
Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.
When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. (Matthew 21:10-21
Disregarding the contradictory chronolgy of these events, I am more concerned with the meaning of the story. On the one hand it seems jesus is basicaly telling the desciples that they have the "power to move mountains" (metaphoricaly I assume), on the other hand Jesus withers a tree because it is not bearing fruit out of season.
Why? The tree was doing nothing wrong.
I would like to hear the opionons from some of the belivers on the board as to the meaning of this story. Not to mention how they reconsile Jesus's curse on a tree, that by all accounts, was not to be bearing fruit at this time.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 12:40 AM Yaro has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 15 (129902)
08-02-2004 10:57 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 15 (129916)
08-03-2004 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
08-02-2004 8:52 PM


Hi Yaro,
I don't fit the category of believer but, IMO, this story was retro-fitted into the Jesus narrative from a later Christian perspective.
That later Christian perspective using the imagery of the fig tree as symbolic of Israel. From OT exegesis, Israel, as God's people, were expected to be the light and substance of YHWH to the nations.
The doctrine also developed that the 1st advent and crucifixion of Jesus would begin the "times of the Gentiles" (wherein a blinding "veil" would be over the eyes of the Jews). Thus, Israel's original commission as the "fruit" of YHWH before the nations has now been revoked and re-instituted in the "church" and, as such, it is now not Israel's "season".
That is how I understand it,
Amlodhi
This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 08-02-2004 11:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 08-02-2004 8:52 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2004 10:11 AM Amlodhi has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6497 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 4 of 15 (129980)
08-03-2004 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Amlodhi
08-03-2004 12:40 AM


Wow, thats kinda harsh!
So basicaly Isreal has withered in the eyes of the lord?
Could this not be interpreted as that Isreal is now hated by god or somthing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 12:40 AM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by johnfolton, posted 08-03-2004 12:03 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 6 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 12:26 PM Yaro has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 5 of 15 (130007)
08-03-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
08-03-2004 10:11 AM


Israel was referred to the olive tree, but the fig tree appears to be about fruit(it takes work to bear fruit), Israel was not bearing fruit(rejecting the wisdom of his word kjv Jeremiah 8:9), like today the churches have an appearance of being full like a fig tree full of leaves but without fruit, but the purpose is to bear fruit. Israel however has been rerooted within the Promised lands and interestingly has been about the regrowing of grooves of fig trees, to fullfill prophecies, its all the prophecies about Israel being rerooted, or there would be no Fig tree grooves in Israel, etc...
http://web.infoave.net/~thegivans/israel.html
P.S. Its like having faith without works, what kinds of fruit is the churches today producing, having a beautiful building but having a homosexual bishop is producing the wrong kind of fruit, but a bitter fruit, is not when Israel wisemen were willingly committing the various abominations without even blushing the very reason Israel missed the visitation of the Lord kjv Jeremiah 8:12, etc...It says you will know them by their fruit. Jerry Falwell appears to be bearing good fruit, cause the enemy hates Jerry Falwell, and the enemy hated the Lord Jesus, too! Prophecy has it that Israel will bear fruit, when they see the Lord Jesus and repent as a nation and be forgiven, this shows the patience of the Lord, the forgiveness, the love, and the Mercy of God. We all know of the judgment, if he judged Israel, shouldn't we be concerned about judgement, too. That the figs are growing and bearing fruit in the natural shows were in the latter days, prophecy being fullfilled before our eyes, the fig trees are bearing all manners of figs, Israel has been rerooted within the Promised Lands(by God), The Word is being glorified, by the very people that rejected the Word kjv Jeremiah 8:9, cause the World all knows that they killed their Messiah(the Word come in the flesh), yet in spite of all this, God has rerooted them and prophecy has it they will not again be uprooted, so the World attempting to uproot is glorifying his Word, cause they are still rooted within the lands, the fig trees are bearing fruit, etc...
kjv Jer 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
kjv Jer 8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: [there shall be] no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and [the things that] I have given them shall pass away from them.
kjv Jer 8:14 Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2004 10:11 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 15 (130010)
08-03-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
08-03-2004 10:11 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Yaro
Wow, thats kinda harsh! Could this not be interpreted as that Isreal is now hated by god or somthing?
Certainly harsh. Remember that this originated from the perspective of the burgeoning "church" in the "church age". At this time, people tended to be less "politically correct" and diplomatic about these things than is expected today. And it has, indeed, been the rationale for the persecution of Jews from various quarters and at various times throughout history.
However, this doctrine is also mollified by the further contention that "in the last days", Israel will shed her blinders, realize that Jesus was the Messiah, and once again assume the position of YHWH's priesthood.
The implication is that even though it is Israel's folly, her temporary blindness is necessary for the implementation of the church age and the salvation of the Gentiles. Thus, even though it is pre-ordained to be so, Israel (like the fig tree), must remain "unfruitful" until the end times.
As ever, namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2004 10:11 AM Yaro has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 15 (130036)
08-03-2004 2:37 PM


Attacks on me are getting boring
The Gentiles are grafted in, that they may be saved, not that Israel perish. It even says in the NT, that blindness has come for this reason - that all will be saved. Israel is the Olive, but I think you and Yaro are digging deeply into the death of this Fig tree. Christ came to his own and they rejected him.
Certainly harsh. Remember that this originated from the perspective of the burgeoning "church" in the "church age".
"Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".
Certainly it's a gross lack of revelation for Yaro to conclude that God hates Israel. Christ is Jewish.
Isn't Christ an example of who God accepts? Greek - Jew - Gentile.
If only the unbeliever could actually "hear". Instead of throwing rotten fruit, and nitpicking in hope of contradictions. But then - Christ himself said that only his sheep will hear his voice. How then have you any interpretation that is correct? When you seek to set stumbling blocks for God?
You will only hear what YOU have to say. For self-righteoussness, only produces withered figs. Aren't you out of season yaro? All you do is preach bad news about our faith. You say rightly when you say "those who do good for the world" don't recieve miracles. Like this Fig - it only bares fruit for the world - like you, and provides no fruit for God.

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 6:11 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 15 (130101)
08-03-2004 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
08-03-2004 2:37 PM


Re: Attacks on me are getting boring
quote:
Originally posted by mike the wiz
Attacks on me are getting boring
Hi mike,
Who's attacking you?
quote:
mike the wiz:
I think you and Yaro are digging deeply into the death of this Fig tree.
And yet, I said nothing about the tree dying. I responded to the question of why Jesus was depicted as withering a fig tree that sensibly shouldn't have been expected to produce fruit out of season.
My response was, and remains, that IMO it is early church symbology designed to express the theological doctrines described in my previous posts.
I have no desire to argue the nuances of that conceived doctrine beyond the simple point of why the story was written. As to any conflicting symbology, it is enough to say that they were arguing about it then, just as others are still arguing about it today.
Also, though I am quite confident that Yaro doesn't need me to be her lawyer, I find no instance in which she concluded that God hates Israel. Are you sure that isn't just your projection?
As ever, namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 08-03-2004 2:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 08-03-2004 6:30 PM Amlodhi has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 15 (130108)
08-03-2004 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Amlodhi
08-03-2004 6:11 PM


The attacks aren't limited to this thread. I am wrathful about numerous foolishness.
Yaro writes:
Could this not be interpreted as that Isreal is now hated by god or somthing?
No - it can't, unless you want to preach bad news from poor interpretations. Certainly she has no ear to hear. God doesn't hate any Israelis - nor Greek nor Jew, while I am Gentile. Getting it yet? If you guys are going to quote mine - you'll have to put up with the guy who read the "rest" of it. The NT clearly explains why blindness came, and as I previously said - the Fig tree is the Fig tree, and the Olive the Olive;
Romans;11;30: For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief; Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy........(going back to verse 26)..., And so all Israel shall be saved.
I responded to the question of why Jesus was depicted as withering a fig tree that sensibly shouldn't have been expected to produce fruit out of season.
I'm not really against you, but I don't see why this particular instance requires a topic. Could she have put it in her other topic where she tries to get rid of christian doctrine, or the topic before that - and the one before that.
Don't be surprised that I say "attacking me". That was not meant for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 6:11 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 7:15 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 15 (130116)
08-03-2004 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
08-03-2004 6:30 PM


Hello again, mike,
I see. We are coming at this from different backgrounds.
I've seen this basic question many times before and it is often presented in the sense of, "Why was Jesus so stupid?". In fact, there is presently a thread on this topic in another forum with that exact quote as its title.
There are many who are truly curious as to why Jesus withered that tree. When it is explained to them that it is a symbolic prefiguration of church doctrine and actually has nothing to do with seasonal fig production, the story usually begins to make sense to them.
In peace,
Amlodhi
This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 08-03-2004 06:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 08-03-2004 6:30 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 08-03-2004 7:36 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 11 of 15 (130122)
08-03-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Amlodhi
08-03-2004 7:15 PM


Hi Amlodhi.
There are many who are truly curious as to why Jesus withered that tree.
Okay - fair enough then.
that it is a symbolic prefiguration of church doctrine
Okay. I'm not sure about what the church says - or any man. All I know is that it doesn't represent the Jews in some bizare anti-semite interpretation of the passage. I think one can easily read too much into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Amlodhi, posted 08-03-2004 7:15 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6497 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 12 of 15 (130138)
08-03-2004 8:36 PM


Greetings Mike and Ahmodi.
I am in no way insinuating that god hates jews, or jesus hates jews, I am not pointing at the bible as an anti-semitic text, that's for another thread
No seriously...
This is something that I have always wondered. I went to christian school when I was young and this story allways puzzled me. I actually find both your explanations interesting and helpfull.
As a matter of fact I think yours, mike, the one about the tree bearing fruit for this world etc. Sounds like a heck of a good metaphore!
That being said Mike, I don't mean to come off as if I am attacking you, or attacking your faith. I don't know you personaly, but I have allways had a personal stake in this issue. This is a debate forum, and we are at oposing points of view. I am perfectly within my bounds to post a topic for debate weather you take it personaly or not.
Back to the fig tree.
The reason I was concerned about it being misconstrewd is because it is a rather loose metaphore. If I was an anti-semite I could use it against the jews, and I wonder if in the darker days of christianity this particular verse wasn't.
I have a particular problem with parts of the bible like this which are so open to interpretation, becuase they cause more problems for us in the modern world.
I have read the bible mike, several times.

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by mike the wiz, posted 08-03-2004 8:56 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 08-04-2004 11:14 AM Yaro has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 13 of 15 (130145)
08-03-2004 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Yaro
08-03-2004 8:36 PM


This is a debate forum, and we are at oposing points of view. I am perfectly within my bounds to post a topic for debate weather you take it personaly or not.
Yes. I just get cranky when it seems the only faith being attacked is my one, and there has been a lot of attacks lately - on christians.
As a matter of fact I think yours, mike, the one about the tree bearing fruit for this world etc. Sounds like a heck of a good metaphore!
Thanks, I was a lil harsh on you - sorry. You gals seem to be a lot against me lately - what with Shraff wanting me to be killed.
The reason I was concerned about it being misconstrewd is because it is a rather loose metaphore. If I was an anti-semite I could use it against the jews, and I wonder if in the darker days of christianity this particular verse wasn't.
I doubt anyone could get away with this though. (Look at my quote for example, in my message to Am').
Usually I find, that there is no justification found for evil - when searched for in the NT. I gauruntee I'll have a wisdom for any evil people trying to "use" scripture for dark doings.
I have read the bible mike, several times.
I know. People have read up to six times yet not understood. Except the spirit of God reveal it to you, I doubt people can understand. Fair enough if you don't believe that, but I find that there are so many unbelievers who seem to come up with problems/arguments - against God, yet they find none for him. So obviously I remain slightly cynical. If only they could "see" it in my mind for a moment. Cos but then you would "get" me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2004 8:36 PM Yaro has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 15 (130284)
08-04-2004 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Yaro
08-03-2004 8:36 PM


Different Interpretation
Yaro,
This Study of Matthew at Yashnet.com has a different interpretation from a Jewish point of view. They are Jews who believe in Christ.
Excerpt:
As we see in chapters 21 through 23, Yeshua directed most of his criticism at the religious leaders of the day, who "shut up the kingdom of heaven" for themselves and others, due to their voiding the commandments of God (Torah) through man-made doctrines.
They interpret the story to mean the religious leaders as opposed to Israel as a group.
I was always confused by this story also.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2004 8:36 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Amlodhi, posted 08-04-2004 12:27 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 15 (130295)
08-04-2004 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by purpledawn
08-04-2004 11:14 AM


Re: Different Interpretation
quote:
Originally posted by purpledawn
They interpret the story to mean the religious leaders as opposed to Israel as a group.
Understandably, they would. And the interpretations will always be diverse and argued. Some good, some neutral, and some leading to outright atrocities.
The common point is that the story was not written to record Jesus' effect on gross national fig production in Judea.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 08-04-2004 11:14 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
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