Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

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If not, then isn't the reasonable and consistent interpretation of this passage not that it's God's plan for men to rule women, but that men will have a natural and degeneritive tendancy to try to rule women, which constitutes the curse?

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Wow, this is great, Crash.What an effective curse it is, too.

1. Anasthesia does not eliminate all the labor of childbirth.
2. As I already stated, "bread" is often used in reference to "food." Did you read that? Did you also read my statement about "sweat of brow?" The implication is that men would need to work for their food at some work and before the industrial revolution that nearly always included physical labor for all. Most in the world still do. Even before the curse, the woman was made as a "helper" to the man and the helper follows the lead of the one helped. Being both perfect before the fall, there was likely a somewhat different relationship between them before the fall which we would not totally understand having not experienced that state ourselves.

Not when both understand the Biblical and natural relationship and role of each in marriage. My wife never begs money from me and she handles much of the finances. We've had a good understanding among us about spending for the past 45 years together and was pretty well established prior to and early in our marriage. My leadership is recognized in this, but she spends what she wants and is wise with money matters herself. We both often consult each other in things we buy.

You didn't answer all my questions. Your answer to my last question was:

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Individual sins shouldn't be confused with degenerative curses.

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I looked up degenerate and found:
1. having sunk below a former or normal condition, etc.
2. morally corrupt; depraveddegenerating:
1. to lose former normal or higher qualities
2. to become debased morally, culturally, etc.I understand the way CrashFrog used the term degenerative in Message 116, but not sure about your use concerning curses.Are you saying that curses that cause mankind to lose former normal or higher qualities will never end?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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If not, then isn't the reasonable and consistent interpretation of this passage not that it's God's plan for men to rule women, but that men will have a natural and degeneritive tendancy to try to rule women, which constitutes the curse? (Much as we don't have to put up with toiling in the soil for bread when we can buy it at the store?)

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Much more reasonable. Love it!

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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Even before the curse, the woman was made as a "helper" to the man and the helper follows the lead of the one helped.

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Help the man do what?The man didn't need help to survive.
Since he was to live forever, he didn't need to reproduce.
He could talk to the animals and God, so he had plenty of company.What did the man truly need help with?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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Not when both understand the Biblical and natural relationship and role of each in marriage.

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Look buz, you have been told many times by a lot of people that the male as leader "naturalness" crap you spout is NOT VALID.Not even a litle bit.In nature, most males breed and split, leaving the females to raise the offspring completely on their own.It is NOT TRUE AT ALL IN MOST CASES that the male provides for the female and the offspring.So, STOP MAKING THAT CLAIM AS IF IT IS TRUE, BECAUSE IT IS NOT.You simply ignore any rebuttals made to your nonsense claims regarding the "naturalness" of male dominance, like greater physical strength and lower voices.

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My wife never begs money from me and she handles much of the finances. We've had a good understanding among us about spending for the past 45 years together and was pretty well established prior to and early in our marriage. My leadership is recognized in this, but she spends what she wants and is wise with money matters herself. We both often consult each other in things we buy.

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In the case of your money-begging man, you considered his behavior childlike, correct?

My mom had C-sections for both me and my sister. She was under total anesthesia. While I realize that doesn't constitute a total ameilioration of the challenge of labor, it certainly reduces the bulk of the "sorrow." Was that against God's will?Let's take it hypothetical - if we had a medical technology that could make labor painless and easy, would that be against God's will? Yes, but since that's hardly a literal interpretation of the passage, and I know you're such a great literalist, I discounted it, because you couldn't possibly have meant it.Moreover that still doesn't change my argument - I don't toil in the field nor does my brow sweat at my job, but I use that money to buy food at the supermarket. Is that against God's will?Let's take it hypothetical - molecular nanotechnology is around the corner - several decades away, at the longest - and it'll mean than any physical item can be constructed for free. If I get bread, or any other food item out of my nanosassembler for free, as I'll be able to, is that against God's will? And presumably the woman has no tasks for which she'll need help from the man? "Helper" is by definition an equal relationship, because the favor is supposed to be returned.If that passage meant what you say it means, it would have said "slave", not "helper."

Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you."
You quote the above to contradict Pecos' claim that women and men are equal.You are actively promoting the idea that men should RULE OVER WOMEN....and thus, you support the oppression of women, buz.Please admit that you support the oppression of women, or explain how I am wrong about your motivations for posting this Genesis verse.Tally of times asked: 4

Personally, I've always been opposed to the suffrage of women. It never seemed right to me.

The woman did not have much to look forward to after the fall, and your quote from Gen:3:16 is generally termed 'the curse'.
What a man should consider is very simple. Make your bed as best as you can by treating your woman with lovingkindness, the way Paul advocated in Ephesians.
Ephesians - Chapter 5:25-33It is a tender admonition and one of my favorites. Keeping it in mind will keep away much sorrow and heal much sorrow as well.25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26. to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27. and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-
30. for we are members of his body.
31. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.
32. This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself...

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"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

I think someone's in your house would be greatly surprised about this remark. Suffrage, eh?

LOL! I knew you'd get it!

The fathers and mothers rule over their children. Jesus rules over the church. Does that mean the parents oppress their children and Jesus oppresses the church? Certainly not. God, our creator had more wisdom than you would've had when he established leadership order in the family, Schraf. You need to get over this notion that Biblical men oppress their wives. It's just not so. Homes that follow this sensible order function well if both do their job, the husband loving the wife as the Bible teaches and the wives submitting to the leadership of the husband as it also teaches.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-25-2004 10:40 PM

I've seen occasions over my 45 years of retail business where this has appeared so both with the husband and wife, but as I said, if both know and abide by the Biblical principle, it's just not that way. Matters are handled sensibly by wise mature adults. Where it trumps your two leader system is when no agreement can be reached. That's where the chain of authority works best, imo. This is not to say there are not families who function well as you say you do. Imo, the majority of couples just don't think that much alike so fights and breakups ensue. Unfortunately, most Christians do not follow the Biblical fundamentals in this. Thus the parity in divorses.