Justify damnation, dammit!

It doesn't matter what I think about them or what they do. All that matters is one thing: acceptance or rejection of Christ. Like...? Well, I can see how you might think that. But as is pointed out many times, the OT brought the law and with the law came condemnation. The law established that everyone was condemned because no one could follow it completely. But OT believers were still saved by faith. Christ brings a new law: the law of grace. This does not mean the old is thrown out, but only that the old can no longer bring condemnation. Christ fulfilled the law IN OUR PLACE. All we have to do is choose to believe and recognize this for it to take effect in our lives. I did, but you say, I'm not justifying myself! I am justifying God! God is the ONLY one who is righteous. We cannot be with him unless we too posses HIS righteousness. We cannot posses his righteousness by following the law. No one can. The ONLY way we can posses his righteousness is by believing in Christ. WHO ARE YOU to say what is right and wrong? God is the only perfect Judge. God is the ONLY perfect righteousness. What on earth makes you think I'm succumbing to fear??? I thought these principles came with the whole package of believing in God.The cold hard truth of the matter is that human "righteousnesses are as menstral rags in His sight". As David said, "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man, that thou visitest him?" In other words, Man is no damn good. None of us are righteous in relation to God. None of us deserve salvation. There is only ONE way to salvation: Christ. God has offered salvation to ALL by grace, but not all will accept. Gah... The atheist's arrogant human viewpoint thinking has gotten to you... Why accept that when we have the thinking of Christ available to us? As I said, I weigh between two alternatives. In one case they are, in the other they aren't. I don't know which is true. And I think it varies between people. Why? tell me why you think a person should not be in hell? If you do not recognize your own depravity in relation to God, what need do you have for a savior? WTF? I just did over and over again!
God = +R (righteousness);
Man = -R;God = Justice: +R = -R: False! Incompatible!;
God = love: love provides solution by grace;Man accepts solution: Man = +R: Justice satisfied +R = +R;
Man does not accept solution: man = -R: Justice not satisfied: +R = -R = false: condemned;I don't know how I could make it any clearer.The only point of ambiguity with me is when a person becomes accountable for this decision. I think only God knows this for sure. If you don't agree with anything else, please just understand that ALL, I repeat ALL, the elements of God's Character exist fully and compatibly in him. Through Christ, God's love, justice, and righteousness are all satisfied.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! (although I know by "figure it out" you mean figure out that evolution is true, but thats ok)This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-23-2004 11:48 PMThis message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-23-2004 11:49 PM

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I think you should give up. I'm a friggin' Rocketscientist and I can't do it. A christian doesn't have a prayer.

I never said that. I think that it may not be all true, but just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's a lie. Think about that. By the way, I only mean the historical context, not the spiritual code of the Bible is probably not true. Look it up in dates and dating; it seems pretty clear to me from the evidence. Again, puttin' words onto my fingers. I have no doubt the original texts were written with utmost faith, because of which there might be a little exxageration from all the excitement.(Sodom, for example) Who cares about origins when salvation and all that stuff about the present is going on right now?! Let the scientists look to our origins; they're certainly making more progress than us theologians have. But as for salvation, that's our job. Now I wanna see if God's as willing to let people in as I hope he is! Don't give me the same 'he sent his son' stuff; lots of people don't believe and so obviously it didn't work for everyone. What about those who don't recieve the message? That makes up the majority of the world. Is God just going to be content sending people to hell for mere ignorance? That is the biggest run on sentence I've seen on this forum . Could you please explain in more precise terms? Skepticism is NO REASON to send someone to hell. If the idea in question holds merit the skepticism won't be such a problem, will it? Woo woo! Here comes the Fuck You Train, first stop is for you!You don't need to be omnipotent to know that sending people to hell for ignorance is immoral. Our human ancestors ate from the tree of knowledge, giving them knowledge of good and evil according to scripture. Whether someone believes that or not, we know what's right and wrong even though emotions may cloud it sometimes. Don't use the 'we don't know enough to argue' arguement, or else you imply that you also don't know enough to say sending people to hell is right! Not at all, sorry if that was a little blunt. Please read why I said they were cowards. No historical document has the meat to describe a God. I believe 'Holy Texts' are holy for a reason. Who cares about what a book says being wrong? You're supposed to feel God with your soul. I do. Lots of people do. That much of the Bible is correct, along with the teachings of Jesus. I realize it was Jesus's teachings that said He was the only way to heaven, but that doesn't sound like the rest of what he said. 1. You're welcome, and I mean it.2. The Fuck You train is picking up speed! There's no way I'm going to selfishly insure my own salvation without worrying about what God's gonna do about people that don't. Until I have a grasp of what's going on there, my own safety is taking a back seat. Why? Cause I give a damn!(No pun intended!)Look, you don't need to be God to understand right and wrong's basics.Clearly, punishing people with eternal suffering for mere ignorance or skepticism is too harsh a sentence for the crime.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

but why? Why would a moral entity send you to hell for not picking the one, the ONLY one, real salvation out of a million doctrines that say the same thing? I'm sorry, but even though Christianity is a great religion there are lots of others to choose from! So God can send people to hell for not finding a needle in a haystack? I'm not talking about those who are saved, and as of right now I don't care. I want to know about those who deserve to be saved but aren't Christians. Why is it fair for them to be damned? Gimme one good reason. The Crusaders believed in Christ. The KKK believes in Christ. Do they have limitless righteousness? Toche. You're a human, too. Saying that you are speaking as a direct representative of God is pretty arrogant, eh? I realise you could very well be speaking the Truth, but you aren't a direct messanger. You thought wrong, Johnny! But if this biblical account of His judgement is correct, and he is the only perfect this and that, it should be pretty obvious, shouldn't it? I see nothing obviously righteous about sending good people to hell, do you? Answer the question, please. Yeah, and lots of other prophets offer salvation! How are people supposed to tell the difference? Pfft! I've thought what I typed there since I was four years old. So far everyone just says that's the wrong way to think. How about you tell me why it's wrong other than because the Bible says so? Show me why it's morally wrong to question toying with life! No more games, answer the question directly. Please explain how it 'varies between people'. Of course I recognize it! I know we're all a bunch of fucked up loonies; just look around you! We do need a savior, but unfortunately for the majority of the world, lots of saviors have been offering salvation the last few thousand years! No more games. Prove this. Without just saying it. Prove to me that this decision making about hell is righteous morally. No more fooling with the 'because He is'. I want an answer. Prove this.Sorry if I'm being a little blunt, and that goes for Buzsaw as well. This is a very serious topic for me, and I don't feel like putting up with you guys dickin' around and not giving me a straight out answer.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Look, I myself explain it totally different.
We can argue about the exact meaning it has to me and you'll counter it with yours.
Both us thinking we're right will not be very constructive and we both think we can argue our claims. I can live with that.
Thanks for the explanation and we'll probably meet again on this board.LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-24-2004 11:52 AM

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Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Bogus apology......because........ In the same thread, more. ...........And this is the last stop for me in this dialog. The above is indicative of your attitude from the gitgo. You beg for topic response and this is your insultive response when it is given. You're a waste of bandwith and time, preacher.

Okay, fine. Sorry if you must take a little spiced up humor as my actual attitude. by the " " I thought it'd indicate that I was joking, and send lots of good laughs because it's a very funny line.
I'm sorry that you took it so seriously, and if you don't want to talk about this anymore that's fine.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Thank you for your reply and this lively debate. Preacher do you know what you're preachin? Apparently you don't or you wouldn't ask this question. If you do not now know what differentiates Christianity from all other religions, why you preachin' Christianity? You don't think that if a person wants to know God, God can reveal himself to that person? You don't think that if a person is incapable of making a decision, God will not take this into account? Gah... You still don't get it! NONE OF US deserves to be saved. We don't DESERVE anything from God. I've explained this over and over again, and yet you still think God owes us something. God's Holiness demands our condemnation. God's Love demands a redemption solution. It's up to us to choose. Everyone has a volition. So everyone can be held accountable......Alright... I think the meat of our conflict is this:Everyone deserves a fair shake. While God's justice demands that we posses his righteousness, it also demands that he take all things into account to give them a fair shake.As I mentioned before, the only point of ambiguity with me is when a person becomes accountable. A child who dies before it is capable of making a decision cannot be held accountable. A retarded person who is not capable of understanding the gospel and making a decision cannot be held accountable. As for "heathens", I weigh between two alternatives: If a heath... er, person of a different faith, never reaches God consciousness (as in supreme being God) and never hears the Gospel, then I cannot see how that person can be judged. However, if a person does decide there is a God and wants to know God, I think God will provide a way for that person to know Him (through Christ), if that person then rejects Christ, that person is condemned.In other words for choice to be meaningful there must be two alternatives: Christ or pagan gods. If a person never hears of any other gods than his own pagan gods and never becomes conscious of a supreme being, then I suppose he is not condemned. If a person becomes consious of God, but rejects Him, then he MAY be condemned. I don't really know. And all of this completely leaves out the roles of God the Holy Spirit's ministry, God's omniscience, and God's omnipotence. Which probably answers this question: God the Holy Spirit is REAL and plays a key role. He makes the gospel understood, and makes choice in the matter meaningful. In fact when a person is saved, it is ALL by His power.
1Co 1:31 Therefore, as it is written, "The person who boasts must boast in the Lord."There is one thing you can be absolutely sure of: God is righteous, fair, and just. Since when did empiricism become faith? What do you BELIEVE, preacher?Preacher, what you gonna preach? When you get your the esteemed title, REVERAND preacher, and find your first job, what are you going to teach?If the Bible's no good, HOW are you going to tell your flock about God? WHAT are you going to tell them?Are you going to rely on your own massive intelect and good sense and make up your doctrine as you go just like the rest of the apostate churches today and in ages past?Are you going to take what you like from the Bible and what you like from the Koran and what you like from the writings of Buddha, and come up with your own ecumenical religion?Are you going to rely on personal revelations from God? What is the source of your wisdom? You or God?Maybe you should pray and ask God for some help in this area. Maybe you should study his word a little more. And don't ever underestimate the power of reading the Bible.Joh 16:13 Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes [and He has come], he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own accord, but will speak whatever he hears and will declare to you the things that are to come.I don't listen to preachers unless they preach the Truth. There is only one absolute standard of Truth and you are not it. Thats cool, I like candor and a little passion in a debate about God. After all, God IS pretty important.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-25-2004 02:00 AM

Thats cool. I never really expect to win too many converts here anyways... I just like to stretch myself a little.

Answer the question:I asked:but why? Why would a moral entity send you to hell for not picking the one, the ONLY one, real salvation out of a million doctrines that say the same thing?Dude, when I asked for no more games I meant you'd answer my questions before throwing some at me. Didn't say that. People will ask to know God, but God is described pretty much the same in all religions. So I wouldn't think God would care too much about which one out of the millions that you happen to pick. Do you? Okay, good point. But what I meant was this: some deserve to be saved more than others, even though none of us fully deserve it. I know you're intelligent enough to understand what I mean. So you don't know either? Thank you for being honest. This provides absolutely nothing for your arguement. You can't try to prove a religion's legitimacy by its holy scriptures saying so. I could use something from the Kabbah to prove Islam, and it'd be equally useless.Let's make something clear: No using the Bible in this arguement. Period. It doesn't do anything. I'm asking for moral justification of God's alledged act of damnation. No scripture, because it goes under the ASSUMPTION of God being perfectly just. You need to prove that this damner is just, you can't just say that He is! Answer the question. I'll answer yours when you answer mine. Prove this. Don't try giving me a guilt trip; it doesn't work because I've no reason to feel guilty for asking a good question. Yeah, whatever. Still leaning on this truth and backing it up with stuff from the SAME doctrine. Every doctrine will say it's true; no religion's holy scripture ends with 'by the way, this religious faith is false.'So, answer my questions. Prove what you're saying is right. Prove it.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I'll make an official announcement so this useless, not to mention painfully annoying, debating tactic doesn't continue:You may not use scripture when justifying God's alledged damnation of nonbelievers. You may not use scripture when justifying God's alledged damnation of nonbelievers. You may not use scripture when justifying God's alledged damnation of nonbelievers. You may not use scripture when justifying God's alledged damnation of nonbelievers. You may not use scripture when justifying God's alledged damnation of nonbelievers. Okay?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Hey B2P, I can certainly understand HD13's and buz's insistence. I used to be one of those with the if-you-don't-believe-what-I-believe-then-you-will-go-to-hell attitude. I now know that there was absolutely no logic or reason that could get my young self to believe otherwise. This is one of the reasons why I tend to try to avoid talking about such issue with people like buz. There's is just no freaking way anyone can make them question their self-righteous attitude.Just a thought.

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The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This thread is steering itself toward my proof thread.

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The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Wow, Hangdawd13.Is that you in the cockpit? Thats freakin badass!is that where you get your name, hangdawg? hehe