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Author Topic:   The Book of Revelation, Hallucination, and Heresy
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 1 of 57 (122560)
07-07-2004 1:47 AM


Over the years I've heard rumors that John of Patmos wrote the Book of Revelation while in a hallucination induced by the fungus ergot. While looking around for any historical support for this claim, I tripped across a website that claims that Revelation is heresy, since the Jesus of Revelation contradicts the Jesus portrayed in the rest of the New Testament. An excerpt:
Strangely, "Revelation's" description of Jesus and its record of Jesus' words are greatly different than what is found in the prior twenty-six books of the New Testament. Those contradictions cause the Book of Revelation to be accused of being heretical. Is the Book of Revelation heretical? What are these contradictions that cause it to be charged as being a book of heresy?
We should remember that Revelation was always doubted in Eastern Christianity and not generally accepted into the New Testament until AD 508. Some ancient Christian branches still do not include it in their Bibles. So, we know discussion and criticism of Revelation is not new and is not a disrespectful activity.
It is generally believed John of Patmos recorded his hallucination around AD 90-95. The Apostles John and Paul believed the authentic scriptures were completed during their life times. John (8:31,32; 17:20) and Paul (Eph. 3:20) wrote those opinions at least thirty years before John of Patmos wrote. Based on this alone, "Revelation" is post Apostolic literature.
http://www.revelation-101.org/
The site goes on to list point-by-point some of these contradictions, (unfortunately with some annoying font choices). An example:
Thyatira (2: 18) has love, patience, faith, service and patient endurance. But Patmos’ Jesus says that is not enough. They have a bad woman in their midst who causing immoral acts and the eating of food that has been sacrificed to Idols. Patmos’ Jesus will kill any children born from adultery with her (2: 22,23).
Will the Gospel Jesus kill innocent children because of the sins of their parents? John the Apostle's Gospel Jesus Christ is a man of love who teaches love, forgiveness, and protection of little children.
Since I am not versed in the New Testament, I'd like to ask both the believers and the historians, and those that are both:
Are the contradictions listed on the site valid? If so, how are the contradictions reconciled to provide a uniform picture of Jesus?
What is the Book of Revelation? is it the Word of God? Hallucination? Heresy?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 07-07-2004 6:42 AM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 7 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 1:47 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-17-2004 1:33 AM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 47 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-01-2004 7:24 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-14-2004 5:50 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 4 of 57 (122709)
07-07-2004 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Jack
07-07-2004 6:42 AM


Hell, massacaring out whole nations didn't exactly cause God to blink twice.
I agree, and this has always been a personal issue I've had with describing the God of the Old Testament as "loving".
It seems like many Christians distance themselves from the OT, and stick with NT teachings - I think it is within this context of taking the NT alone that Revelation contains contradictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 07-07-2004 6:42 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 07-07-2004 12:57 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 11 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 5:50 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 9 of 57 (122749)
07-07-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by PecosGeorge
07-07-2004 1:47 PM


Jesus, child-killer?
Consider the book of revelation as written in code.
In Revelation Jesus kills all of the children born of adultery - how exactly do you read this 'code'? how does the 'context' change the reading of the 'child-killer' verses?
To me, it seems a disgusting distortion of Christ to be used by fire and brimstone fear-mongerers...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 1:47 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 5:49 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 14 of 57 (122809)
07-07-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PecosGeorge
07-07-2004 5:49 PM


Re: Jesus, child-killer?
Sorry, I assumed you had read the opening post.
Rev Chap 2, specifically verses 22-23.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 5:49 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-08-2004 12:15 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 15 of 57 (122810)
07-07-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PecosGeorge
07-07-2004 5:50 PM


Re: Marked
Why? Do you know? All the Canaanite nations. Why?
As usual I have trouble understanding what you are getting at Pecos.
Would you explain yourself better? If you already know the answers to the "why" questions, why not give those answers right away? If they are your own interpretations, preface them as such...
Why? Do you know?
(By the way if you are trying to justify genocide by God, it probably won't work for me, since I find genocide inexcusable and perhaps the most immoral thing I can think of...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 5:50 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 23 of 57 (124897)
07-16-2004 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by PecosGeorge
07-08-2004 12:15 PM


literal code
Pecos,
Just want to get your ideas straight:
You state the Book of Revelation is in code.
What about the rest of the Bible - should any of it be taken literally, or is it all symbolism?
If some parts are in code and others not, where do they hand out the secret decoder rings that allow us to know the literal from the coded verses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-08-2004 12:15 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 07-16-2004 5:50 AM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 25 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-16-2004 9:47 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 37 of 57 (125400)
07-18-2004 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-17-2004 1:33 AM


Buzsaw, thanks for your comments.
Rev 1:10 says John was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day." He was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Okay, but John wrote Revelation.
If John was hallucinating that he was "in the Spirit", that is what we would expect to see written in Revelation.
It is the mode of authorship that is being questioned - you can't cite the authored work as proof of legitimacy. It's like proving someone's not a liar by reading a note they wrote saying, "I'm not a liar."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-17-2004 1:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-18-2004 2:28 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 38 of 57 (125401)
07-18-2004 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-17-2004 1:33 AM


Buzsaw, you made comments that parts of Revelation are metaphor, and parts are literal. How do we know which is which?
Also, do you believe the rest of the Bible should be taken literally? I'm asking because I've realized that many believe in a literal reading of the Bible until they get to Revelation, and then terms like "code" and "symbolism" and "metaphor" start getting used.
My thought is that the rest of the Bible is historical, and so can be taken as literal on faith. However, Revelation deals with the (near) future, and so if (possible) apocalyptic events occur and are not witnessed as literally described in the Bible, doubt will be cast on the entire Bible. Or more likely, it allows the opportunity to see the prophesies fulfilled or capable of being fulfilled in the world around us, even though that requires using metaphor and symbolism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-17-2004 1:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6053 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 51 of 57 (134243)
08-16-2004 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object
08-14-2004 5:50 PM


But this deficiency doesn't seem to stop you from making conclusions.
The people who reject the book of Revelation all have one common denominator: No belief in the existence of miracles.
WILLOWTREE, WILLOWTREE, why am I not surprised to get such a reactionary reply from you?
If you actually read the post you replied to, you'll see I didn't make any conclusions, I simply asked questions. Also, I'd be interested to see what leads you to believe that I reject miracles...
Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion?
One question I've had since the OP: how do we know which parts of Revelation are symbolic or code, and which parts should be taken literally?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-14-2004 5:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-30-2004 9:59 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
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