Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.

Thank you for the reply. To what extent have you experienced the real world? How often as I asked before do you get out and talk to ALL different kinds of people with ALL different kinds of views?You cannot explain all the hate, violence, bitterness, misery, persecution, destruction, poverty, perversion etc... in human history by saying humans are inherently very good. You choose to focus on the good and positive and somewhat ignore the bad and explain it away, saying "Oh people weren't informed enough" etc. This is ignoring part of reality. I don't choose to focus on the good or bad. I am only demonstrating the bad in us here to prove that we are inherently bad. I know that we all have a constant battle going on in us to choose one over the other. If you ignore your enemy (bad), he will overtake you. Oh good!!! We HAVE reached an agreement. You just need to stop ignoring the bad. It is every bit as much a part of us as the good. You still have to deal with it and can't ignore it. Well, I read the humanist manifestos for a class last year and remember thinking that it was a lot of B.S.Human history is cyclical. Things come and go. Powers rise and fall. Societies reach a grand peak and then decline. You have no guarantee that what you are working for will make a lick of difference in the greater scheme of things, in fact history shows it probably won't. You have no guarantee that human history will not go back to the dark ages a hundred years from now. You have no guarantee human history will not be wiped out 200 years from now. You are just going to die soon anyways, so any power, money, acheivements, and whatnot will disappear. You will just vanish. Even if you are incredibly famous, people will forget about you. Those who love you will get over their loss. Your impression in this life is like a foot print in the sands on a beach. Taking the easy way out eh? Blaming all the bad on God and giving us all the credit for the good eh?I'll explain it AGAIN: God made us perfect and gave us soveriegnty to choose for or against him. We chose against and he provided a solution so that we can still be worthy if we choose. Sigh... I'll explain this AGAIN. God inspired it. God the Holy Spirit interprets it. No one including myself can gain spiritual truth apart from God. RARELY is this the case. Usually it has been a monarchy or oligarchy or aristocracy or plutocracy that has decided what is good for societies as a whole. And when people do, they usually do not re-invent the wheel every time. It's interesting that those under the guise of Christianity who cause all the atrocities and make names for themselves are the one's who have plotted and schemed their way into power and wealth. A true Christian does not care about such things. The true examples of Christianity are the silent humble invisible heroes that the world never knows about because they do not care if the world knows. I'm sure there are some in your community that you never knew about.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-04-2004 01:13 PM

Thank you for this informative instead of argumentative post for a change. Atonement is a phrase that I associate with the OT sacrificial system when Jews offered sacrifices for their sins.Is the hindu month of atonement to purify them from their sins as well? Completely agreed. Do the Hindus' have a compiled holy book of scriptures? If so, what is the name? Is the Hindu path to salvation "living righteously" in other words, basically a more and more perfect morality? And finally, what do the Hindus believe they are being saved from? Do you mean in the sense of freedom of beliefs since there was a caste system? Or did the caste system come about later as a perversion of the original Hindu scriptures? Couldn't be more true.

Thanks for your reply. Hey, my Birthday is tomorrow! Shoot, I know I don't know everything. But I can be guaranteed that what I learn from the Bible is truth and therefore know it with certainty. When I match what I learn with what I see, it makes perfect sense. Call this post-hoc or whatever, but it definately fits reality. It seems that humanism and similar philosophies have been born recently out of the unprecedented prosperity we see. People that relied on these philosophies became terribly disillusioned during the two World Wars, but they have made their come back. I can only hope and pray that God will give you a strong dose of "reality" to shake your philosophies as well. Oh not at all. I am a very trusting person to the point of gullibility. I tend to trust people implicitly until they do something to violate it. I always look for the good in people, but am not at all surprised at the bad.I admit that no matter how successful a person is at becoming "moral" he still has skeletons in the closet and has not changed his status as a sinner and will always be suceptible to failure. And in light of our position relative to God's perfect justice and righteousness, we are no damned good! How comforting it is to know how nothing we are in comparison to Him and he loves us inspite of this! AND how great it is that OUR ability to reside with him does NOT depend on our MERITS as all the other world religions apparently imply. You've got something there. However, US society has evolved a lot. There is no community anymore. There is no more Mayberry and Andy and Opie and Aunt Bee. We are both good and bad by nature. But we have no reason, but sheer blind optimism to say that the good in humanity will eventually triumph over the bad in humanity. The good and bad will always be fully with us.Why I place emphasis on that we are sinners, is that even if a person only does ONE bad thing in life, he is impure and unacceptable in comparison with God's perfect righteousness and needs reconciliation. In other words, in relation to God, our bad trumps our good, and therefore our good gets us no closer to him because we still have the bad with us. So we need a scapegoat, a perfect sacrifice to take away the bad in us so that we can have God's righteousness. Haha... Spoken like a true liberal. Were the Popes like leo and the kings like Henry VIII fundies? True. And why were the people ignorant? Because the monarchs and church officials wanted to keep and expand their power and wealth... A most un-christian concept. "My power is made perfect in weakness" - GOD Good. I'm glad you accpet this. I see no meaning in anything for the sake of anything, because it all passes away unless there is more. Thats what Ecclesiastes is all about. "Everything is meaningless a chasing after the wind." THe only thing that adds true everlasting meaning is loving and serving God.Well, I'm out of time. Off to go blow suff up. Happy Independence Day!

My definition of true fundamentalist Christianity is Christianity that goes back to the fundamentals found in the BIBLE. I only know a little about him and his 95 theses but I think Martin Luther was basically a fundie. The Popes and Kings like Leo and Henry made up their doctrine as they went to suit their purposes.It may surprise you, but lust for power and money DOES corrupt people. Mav has shown how the same thing happened with the Hindu religion and the caste system. I don't know why you can't admit that they were corrupt and no longer practicing fundie Christianity. It goes both ways. Some people lean towards asceticism and self-rightouesness and some lean towards lusciviousness and liscentiousness. Both are arrogant points of view. Christians are suceptible to both.... And some just ignore God's Word all together.

Thank you for your interesting and very informative reply. A few more questions if you don't mind and can answer:
According to the Vedas what is the cause of the "sin" or bad in the world and the schism that has separated us from the Brahman? Also, what caused the beginning of life? Or was there no beginning and no end, but always an eternal cycle? Also, is the Brahman the supreme god among many gods and are his attributes anything like the Christian god's attributes (i.e. omnipotent omnipresent omniscient just righteous love sovereign etc and so forth...)? And what does Buddhism give as an explanation for the cause of life's suffering and "sin"? I'm glad you understand and agree with this. I think we both agree that a religion's moral code itself is not the cause of atrocities committed by those who have perverted it.This is similar to what happend in Christianity when Catholic Christianity gained political power and wealth and abandoned true doctrine taught by the scriptures; however, some continue to blame the Christian moral code for these atrocities rather than the power lust and money lust crazed people who are responsible.

No, you don't get it because you do not accept God the Holy Spirit's absolute authority in the Bible. You believe the Bible is just a guide written by men, but not the ultimate truth. Is that correct or have I misjudged you? You make it sound like it is an impossibility to know true doctrine. All one has to do to learn true doctrine, is be humble, make sure one is in fellowship with God the H.S. by confessing any sin, and then spend time every day humbly studying God's Word. It's so freakin easy! The most important thing by far is humility.If one wants to know whether or not another also has "true doctrine" all one has to do is compare the other's words and actions with the standard of the Bible.But none of this was possible back then, because the Catholic church took this privilige away, and considered it heresy for anyone but a church official to even have a Bible. Now when leadership forbids people to have Bibles, which are the ultimate standard, that should put a HUGE friggin flag up saying "We are not adhering to true doctrine and are making up our own and want to keep you ignorant of our evil schemes."I have met MANY MANY people who share the exact same "true doctrine" that I do, but do you ever hear about them? Usually not, because they are content to serve humbly out of the limelight.There is nothing wrong with the belief that I have "true doctrine" because G.H.S. has taught it to me through my dilligent study of scripture. That is what Christianity is all about: finding the truth and sticking to it in order to better love and serve God and others.There is everything wrong with the belief that "I have 'true doctrine' because I have the divine right to decide arbitrarily what true doctrine is."

If you do not believe the Bible is complete truth, then how can you judge whether or not someone is adhering to true Christian doctrine or only giving lip-service to it? How do you know what true Christian doctrine is?My Christian doctrine may allow me to make judgements as to whether or not others are following Christian doctrine as well, but it is not good to get into quarrels with other Christians about doctrine as this only increases the arrogance of both parties and further obscures the truth. Any humble person does not need me to correct them. God the H.S. will correct them. However, any person who rejects the principles of Christianity altogether and acts contrary God's moral code should be ousted from the church by the pastor, lest he cause division deceive others. The congregation must also be diligent students and compare what the pastor says and does with the scripture to make sure he is acting according to Christian principles as well. So if two people claim to be right, what do you do to judge between the two? Appeal to an outside source: the BIBLE. But as I said, this privilege was not given to the people.The Christian way of life is an individual process of learning more about God, obedience to God, and learning humility.The key to learning Bible doctrine is humility. A Christian may know much doctrine, but when he becomes arrogant, it is useless to him. Crusader arrogance, self-righteous arrogance, and lust get many Christians into trouble. Once they are in the arrogance complex they quit humbly studying God's word every day and devoting time to prayer and meditation. If Bible doctrine is no longer circulating in their thinking, they cannot apply it to life. While they still go by the title of "Christian", they do not have the "mind of Christ" (true doctrine in the thinking).Make no mistake, a "true believer" can be the worst S.O.B. (son of Belial) you've ever seen and a tool of Satan because he is arrogant. This does not mean the Christian moral code is wrong. Life is full of choices. We can be motivated by our selfishenss and arrogance, or we can be motivated the humble desire to be obedient to God and serve others.I'm sure all these means didly squat to you, so just answer this question:You seem to think the evil behavior of all "Christians" in the past is a direct result of a flaw in Christian doctrine itself. What aspect of Christian doctrine is responsible in your opinion?

As I said before, moral truth is knowable by all, so new or reinforcing perspectives on moral truth can be found elsewhere. Spiritual truth is knowable only by believers.Free thinking is not discouraged; Idolatry is discouraged. ..but your hand is not a standard, because it did not come from God as the standard size for all hands. The standard of truth is the author of truth.

Thank you for your reply. Ah, but if I only looked at one translation and one commentary, I would not be a diligent student, would I? And if G.H.S. does not make it knowable to me, then I am only learning subjectively. Must every professing 'Christian' be perfect for Christianity to be valid? Christians are people too, and easily decline into reversionism. You choose to look to the poor examples of Christianity to make your judgements about it because you have already rejected it. I have my reasons to believe what I believe. And my faith is strong that if I lost everything tomorrow, I would praise God.Are you certain of what you believe? Do think that humanism may be flawed? Do you ever entertain the idea that Christianity might be right? Is this a warning that I will make poor choices if I do not reject God and his Word? Don't worry about me... Bible doctrine has completely turned me around and got me making right choices now (most of the time). The ONLY thing that could cause me to lose faith is arrogance, which I successfully battle against daily.On the contrary, I've found that Bible doctrine has made me far MORE flexible and more relaxed. But you were talking about flexibility with virtue. No, I will not be flexible with my virtues. My integrity is the most important thing I have. God of course. By the Bible I learn more about Him and can better respect and love Him and also learn how to live righteously. Yes of course, thats why I do the objective learning beforehand and the application to subjective experience afterwards. Because my perception of reality will be filled with subjectivity, sin, and emotion and would never completely fit. This is how sects split up: one person gets a subjective opinion on reality through his own experience, and then tries to fit scripture with experience instead of experience with scripture. No two people perceive reality the same way unless they share the common scriptural lens. It would be most honest to check myself BY myself??? No, certainly if I want to check myself honestly, I must appeal to an outside standard. If you're insinuating that only ignorant morons or stubborn neurotics uphold Christianity, you're sorely mistaken. People of all IQ's and education have been strong Christians. The reason humanism rises with an intellectual populace, is that people place more faith in themselves than in God. Human wisdom becomes a source of arrogance forbidding anyone to trust in anything besides themselves. So if you are allowed to use this as a point, why am I not allowed to make the point that many of our Founding Fathers adhered to Christianities ideals? Sigh.... it is only depressing to you because it shatters your golden image of humanity. It is not unfair, for the reasons I gave in another thread and furthermore because God provided a solution by grace. Haha... now you are calling murder and rape an interesting product of human imperfection in free-will when it suits your purposes, whereas before you were calling it an evil and sedistic product of God when arguing against God...So, when arguing for humanism: humans are mostly good and bad is what makes life fun and interesting...When arguing against God: God is mostly bad and all bad is despicable.Hmm...Anyways, I cannot say that I like being imperfect, but in a sense it is my imperfections, which refine my will to conform it to God's. If I were perfect to begin with, I'd have everything to lose, but being imperfect, I have everything to gain. Oh really, so you believe that divorce, murder, money lust, power lust, arrogance, and churches having political power etc... and so forth are all fundamental principles of Christianity?Didn't the Pope kind of make up his doctrine as he went along? and didn't Henry kind of use whatever immoral means necessary to establish an heir to the throne? It seems like both had their own purposes in mind rather than God's. I'm glad you acknowledge this. It is not hard to see that the Catholic church severely perverted Christianity in all its scheming back in the day. Oh, don't give the that lame bullshit again.If a car has 4 wheels an internal combustion engine, a steering column and a transmission,then can you really call a contraption with two wheels, pedals, a chain, and handlebars a car?Edited to add: well, I suppose you could say the two gears plus the two tires make 4 wheels and the rider internaly digests and burns food to make the pedals turn, and the gears act as a transmission... This is ridiculous. Anyone knows a bike is not a car.But this is what people do when they pervert Christianity. Thanks! This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-07-2004 04:02 PMThis message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-07-2004 04:10 PM

In the wise words of shallow Hal: If you had Wonder Woman, but the rest of the world did not believe in her, would it matter? Umm... Yes. Why is it ill-advised to teach other peoples morals from the Bible?

Get the Holy Spirit and do some studying yourself. It's so easy. Christianity is an individual process of growth. It's not something you can depend on others for. Yes. It's a pitty. But in a race, only one runner takes the prize. How do you know? I would say, "ask God", but you sorta have to believe he exists first. I don't remember. Probably on TV. Maybe it was that Kung Fu guy with the cop son that had that series... I donno. Nah... God and me, We're tight. He opens my eyes to truths my logic and reason could never find. But I am a very much a scientifically minded person. If my career in the Marine Corps doesn't work out, I'm considering post-graduate study in astrophysics. But I'm content to do whatever God has for me.You wanna talk about abandoning reason and logic, just look at the evolutionary theory! Muhahaha... It is also very true that as intelligence rises it becomes a source of arrogance. Haha... I told this story in some other post of how I disbelieved in Santa Clause. I was three or four and I told my mom I didn't believe in Santa Clause because he would have to practically be everywhere at once to visit all the houses on earth in one night and only God is everywhere at once.I think there is a VERY deep need in all of us for a relationship with our creator. When this need is fulfilled, there is nothing else on earth comparable to it. Words cannot describe it. And you don't know what you're missing until you have it. So people with low IQ's make mostly hurtful choices and people with high IQ's make mostly wonderful choices, eh?No, I don't think intellect has much to do with it. I've known some wonderfully sweet retarded people and some downright evil smart people. It all has to do with arrogance and humility. How do you know? The Bible hasn't changed. If you don't know what's in the Bible then how do you know they were following fundamental principles of the Bible??? Different from the countless pastor/teachers who unobtrusively teach true Bible doctrine to their congregations who live a wonderful peaceful civil life as invisible heroes. It was so encouraging when I went to the Christian college I go to, to meet people from all over the U.S. and even world who shared the same doctrines that I did and the same love, respect, and devotion to God and each other.Can't you see? If a person acting as a religious leader makes himself historically famous, that's probably a good indication he's not doing his job right. A religious leader's job is to communicate doctrine, not to start an arrogant crusade. Humbly study the Bible with the filling of the H.S. That doesn't mean EVERYONE followed this perverted form of Christianity. You don't hear about the remnant that carried on true Christianity just like today most people think Christianity is going to the church bowling alley for some fellowship and singing a few songs on Sunday. I don't know my history well enough to comment on him, however his 95 theses were definately a step in the right direction. I can't account for whatever his actions after that were.

I was just saying that no society has perfect equality. There always has been a hierarchy of power in which the uppermost level determines what is best for the whole society. The only case where this is not true is pure democracy where every person has an equal say on everything. But this breaks down rather quickly.

Perhaps we should think of it like this:A person born in America is an American. Let's say this American grows up and becomes an ambassador to France. While in working in France the ambassador stops representing the American foreign policies determined by his authority in the government, but instead makes up his own stuff as he goes along. Perhaps, he even acts compeltely irresponsibly or even criminally and starts shooting people from the window of the Embassy. Is he still representing America to France and the rest of the world? NO!Similarly, a person who believes in Christ is a Christian. If he stops representing Christian polocies to the rest of the world, he is no longer representing Christ to the rest of the world.A person may be a Christian by re-birth, but fail as an ambassador for Christ."Then I will boldly make known the mystery of the gospel for whose sake I am an ambassador in chains desiring to declare it as boldly as I should."I think this is a pretty straightforward way of thinking about it.

Very true.I just read this from Shakespear's play A Merchant in Venice. Shakespear put's it far more eloquently than anyone I think."Mark you this, Bassanio,
The devil can cite scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek --
A goodly apple rotten at the heart:
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!" Absolutely.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-09-2004 04:57 PM

Lust is self-centeredness. Lust is not the same as desire. Lust is preoccupation with self through desire. A Christian has no room in his thoughts for his selfishenss. He thinks about God most of all and consequently other people. He considers others above him and considers other people's needs before his own. Any preoccupation with self is arrogance and leads a person's thoughts away from God and others thereby preventing him from living the Christian way of life.