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Author
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Topic: Any good books against ID?
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
btw, Philip, nice try. However appealing to Christianity would not work for me. I am not one.
Not a Christian you tell the world? What are you, respectfully(besides evolved slime)?
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Evolved Muslim slime. Happy?
--Respectfully, Andya primanda; how can Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindoo, or other apperceptive conscious psyches (A.K.A. spiritual beings) possibly evolve from slime (i.e., naturalistic chemicals and elements)? I’m assuming you concede (at least) that you have an apperceptive conscious psyche. --If you don't concede that you have a soul, I invite you to critique my meager hypothesis here on the proof of your spiritual existence. Sincerely, Philip [This message has been edited by Philip, 06-26-2002]
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Maybe you are not familiar with my position? I believe that I have an immortal soul, which Allah would judge after my mortal body dies. Therefore I agree with your hypothesis. However I consider that my body has the mark of evolution in it. Allah commanded humans to be the leader of His creatures; leaders are selected from within their subjects, right? Our soul may be special, however our body is not.
--Glad we seem to agree on the immortal soul as existent. Why are you looking for books against ID? Is ID inconsistent with OEC or even one great ID at the beginning of the creation? There are plenty of ToEists here that refute ID altogether, for the soul, for the creation A PRIORI, etc.
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
God is All-Benevolent. He creates life with the ability to evolve, so that His creatures may cope with the daily troubles of life and would not have a sealed fate of extinction. We can discuss further about this. Maybe we must start a new thread somewhere?
--I note your shrewd response. This thread may be appropriate and easier to keep track of. At present, I have no counter thoughts, except I seek redemptive design (vs. mere ID), which you, too, seem to infer.
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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You spoke redemptive statements: 1) God is All-Benevolent 2) createsability to evolve, so that His creatures may cope with the daily troubles of life and would not have a sealed fate of extinction. Andya, these are both redemptive statements in a broad sense, don’t you think? Both would make excellent sermons in the God-of-Gaps OEC, regardless of religion. While I’m not a Unitarian, the inference appears at least partially redemptive, i.e., temporal redemption(s). I think I realize you are not implying total redemption design here, like eternal-salvation-design, but redemptive design nonetheless. But while you’re on the subject of selfish bodies; how do you (and/or other Muslims) account for victory over the flesh via one’s own efforts. Do those efforts rely on God’s redemptive help at all (redemptive design) in real time? Does a saved soul make it SANS any redemptive plan whatsoever? Surely the commandments of Moses are impossible to obey with every jot and tittle: For who could love God 100% with all his heart, soul, mind, and spirit and his neighbor as himself, SANS some redemptive plan (A.K.A. Redeemer-Designer)?
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
[B]Anyway,one thing that made me deny ID (for theological reasons) is that evolution can be used as a scapegoat for bad/flawed design, rather than blaming God. Evolution is neither omnipotent nor intelligent; that way we won't have to deny God if we see flaws in nature. We should not suspect God of doing nasty things; that is where I find the concept of evolution useful. For instance, people can be killed by their appendix; why blame God for putting it there? Blame evolution. B][/QUOTE] Is this the only motive, Andya? The primordial cause of evolution, with all its randomness and tentative natural selections, is God the Designer, is it not? For the Designer must have infinite understanding (as per Ps 147, perhaps in the Koran as well), comprehending all elements, relations, force-vectors, etc., past, present, and future ... Else God is not all-powerful, deterministic in foreknowledge, etc.
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4753 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: 03-10-2002
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Very well. I'll return to discuss later. (Preparing for a week's journey) Philip
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