Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.

Not in many of the Eastern Religions. They begin, as I have said, by working towards the concept that self-discipline is the only effective moral code. And it seems to work. But have you considered that those martial arts are significantly different than anything practiced in the West? For one thing, they are purely defensive in nature and not offensive. They are also basically passive and responsive. They are designed to turn the power and force of an attacker back onto the aggressor. They are also very contemplative and philosophical in nature. Again, that is simply not the case. There is a part of that history that you may not be considering. Christianity was NOT a peaceful influence even under the Roman Empire. It was constantly a cause of war, with multiple Popes, multiple creeds and constant warfare between the various Christians.Consider what happened involving the Arians, primarily the Goths. They were driven from Northern Europe down into Spain and eventually across the strait into North Africa. Also look at the history of the Gnostics. And look at what happened to the Bogomils, followers of Manicheanism. They were totally wiped out during Crusades of Christians against Christian. Look at the Reformation and Counter Reformation. Look at England under Henry, Edward, Mary Elizabeth and James.These were all wars and genocide of Christian against Christian.You simply do not find that in the histories of the Eastern Religions. That is another story entirely, but one that I think might make an interesting thread. Japan is unique. It is predominately a Shinto Religion based society. And, as I have said, I have a hard time coming to grip with Shintoism. It is one of the few religions that absolutely says there is no difference between good and evil. It is unlike Buddhism, Confucianism, the teachings of Mencius or the Taoists. I have not, to the best of my knowledge, asked you to lay the Bible aside.I do believe that the basic moral code of Christianity can be defined in the two great commandments, Love God and the two part, Love others and yourself. Not exactly. I look at Homosexuality in relation to what I see as the basic Christian Moral Code. And I can find no way to justify any anti-homosexual prejudice or bias and remain faithful to Christian Ethics.It’s as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Do you agree that one test of the validity of a moral system should be the lives and behavior of its followers?

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Yes of course. But the problem i have with 'christian atrocities' is that is this something man has done or is this what God is teaching us to do. Its certainly not what Jesus has taught us. We must go to the foundation of the religion. Just as in the 'radicalism and religion' thread when many stated that the Koran is not to blame for terrorism as it does not teach this etc. The same is for christianity. If people have killed in the name of christianity then they have not been consistent with their belief (i.e do not murder).

How about Christian killing Christian?Can you cite an example of one incident of followers of one of the Eastern Religions, Buddhist, Confucius, Mencius, the Doists, where there was warfare between the different believers of that faith over interpretations of their Religion?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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A "new age philosophy" that predates the supposed birth of jesus? Little confused about "new age" as well as Buddhism it seems. Tell us where does Buddhism say there is no god? There is no evidence that jesus was not just another "philosopher" of a "false religion" and any claims to know otherwise is groundless opinion

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Have you ever wondered how men like Buddha didnt 'fake' prophecies, 'fake' miracles. Many here say well noone knows that Jesus 'really' did those things. The prophecies were all put on and faked they say. But not many other religions have 'faked' these things. The reason is when a event happens in history, there is enough eyewitnesses and written manuscripts and accounts circulating for many to have denounced them as false and frauds. Yet the Bibles letters were cherished and widely accepted as truth. Written works of anything in history from the period of AD30-to-60 are said to fit in bookends only a footapart. The magnitude of the christian record stands far above any record of anyone who has ever lived. Existing early manuscripts exceed 24,000.

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Just MHO, but I think slavery had a very essential place back in the day. How else are you going to assimilate the people that you just conquered into your society? I mean seriously, supposing we were imperialistic and decided to make Iraq a sovereign territory of the US, all hell would break loose. The only way peace and order would be established in the American state, Iraq is by iron discipline and by initially giving the conquered no rights. After many years time to cool down and get humbled and accept US culture (and dare I say beliefs) and allow any plans of rebellion to die off, offer them citizenship... I think that is pretty much how slavery worked back then in Israel. Slavery in the 19th century US was totally different, because we didn't conquer them and we didn't offer them freedom and we became racist against them which did not permit them to be assimilated into our society.

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Oh dear, where to begin?In the OT, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews.Was that a "very essential" thing to have happened?Was that just and good, because it's exactly what you are describing when the Jews did it.They "assimilated" Moses, didn't they, and yet he rose up and freed the Jews later. Why would he do that if slavery was good?I find it pretty creepy that you are not filled with revulsion, as I am, at the idea of slavery EVER being justified, for any reason.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-04-2004 12:33 AM

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No, but maybe it was a long time ago in some sort of fashion.
Maybe 2000 years from now, we will look back at how we live, once we get freed from this life we live, and say was it ever right?

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What kind of moral relativism are you pushing here?I thought that Christians were all about moral absolutes, but here you and Hangdawg are hedging on the moral jusifications for slavery, and here I, the Agnostic, am arguing that slavery of any kind is always immoral.The next time you or hangdawg try to make that "nonbelievers can't be moral because it's all relative to them" argument, I'm going to refer you right back here.

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The problem is that men are sinful so they will never be able to create a completely correct moral code. Society made of fallible men has never created a perfect moral code. There are two forces working in those who create such codes: sin/arrogance/subjectivity and humility/objectivity/good.

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What a negative view of humanity, and very sad.I think that people are basically good and are pretty naturally adept at understanding issues of fairness and justice, even from an early age. Given the right love and discipline as children, most people grow up to pretty much do the right thing most of the time.

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The benefit of belief is that it completely and firmly establishes the moral code and prevents deviation from the code by giving God's authority to it.

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That is interesting to read considering your moral relativistic take on slavery a couple of messages ago.Belief in God doesn't establish moral codes; people do. Religion, which is a subset of society, serves to indoctrinate people into moral codes, but it is hardly necessary.

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I am not saying a society's government must mandate belief; this is disastrous indeed. But a society's believing rulers (in our case the people) can determine laws based on their beliefs (and good sense). When they all drop God's authority and a single moral standard, the battle of subjective opinions begins. Some might say this is good, but...

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But everyone, especially believers, base their morals on subjective opinions; namely, their own.

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In a free self-governed society, adherence to a standard moral code is absolutely essential because individual integrity is what keeps the society running.

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Agreed.

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Other societies have maintained adherence to a moral code apart from God through strict social structure (from slaves to aristocrats) or iron discipline.

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...or in the US, with a constitutional democracy.

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In a monarchy, the society is only dependent on the integrity of a monarch. In a free Republic the society is only dependent on the integrity of the acheivers (those who have already demonstrated integrity). In a democracy the society is dependent on the integrity of ALL it's citizens, yet time and time again when people are given a choice, most will choose wrongly, thus democracy has earned the term "mob rule".

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I disagree.When people are given an INFORMED choice, they often choose right.If the US people have made nothing but a long series of wrong choices, why are we currently the most powerful and wealthy country in the world?

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We have practically become a democracy. When the majority of our people lose their moral base and God's authority in it

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...except in our government, the authority comes from the people, not God or gods.

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and step foot on the shifting sands of modern relativistic philosophy,

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...like "sometimes slavery is neccessary and good"?That kind of moral relativism?

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their integrity will be wiped out, because as usual, when given a choice the average joe makes the subjective one: the wrong one.

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I think the average Joe makes many perfectly good, moral choices every day.You have a really terrible view of humanity, you know that? How depressing to live your life thinking that everybody is bad by nature.OTOH, I suppose you get to feel superior because you have figured all of this out already, eh?

Howdy So kids are expected to gain self-disicpline on their own? I think you missed my point. All of your evidence of this is based on what happened after Constantine made Christianity the enforced religion around the 4th century AD and after the Papacy was established and after the Papacy gained political and economic power and after the church refused to allow the citizens to read the Bible and charged money for repentance and reserved the right to condemn anyone they chose. The peasants were kept ignorant of Bible doctrine and Catholic leaders were corrupted by power and greed and invoked the fear of hell to get people to do whatever they wanted. All that remained of Christianity was the name.Again you say that Christianity is the CAUSE of all of the hell, which is ridiculous. Please point out to me what aspects of Christianity caused the evil and lack of peace. Given your bias, I would guess that Eastern society was not always as peachy as you claim, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that on the whole there was significantly less violence and turmoil in the Eastern societies. Remember that we are in a spiritual war. Satan goes out and deceives the nations (Rev. 20). He is the opponent. He is always battling against God trying to defeat his plans. It makes sense that he would attack hardest Christianity and try hardest to distort it, disembowel it, and divide it. (I am not blaming the problems mentioned on Satan. I am blaming it on the people who rejected truth, and were decieved and divided by him) There is a very real battle that goes on in the hearts and minds of men and the spiritual realms between good and evil. I don't remember the context exactly, but I gave a Bible doctrine as an explanation, and you replied something to the effect of "Why don't you lay your Bible aside and invite God over for a visit for a few beers and some pretzels; He's a party kind of a guy" Again, this is the general, and does not eliminate any of the specific. You must also not that this is to love in a moral sense: virtue-love, not in the emotional sense. In other words we are to love people on the basis of OUR integrity not their value or attractiveness. So we still have to have a moral code to adhere to love others in the moral sense. So you have accepted the general moral, but ignored the specific morals (in the Bible).
...I won't get into homosexuality here.Thank you for your replies.

I don't know that much about the Eastern societies so I cannot address the question. But I do think that the wars between different sects of "Christians" is evidence of the phenomenal spiritual forces at work here. The Bible specifically warns us about becoming divided. Believers are all one body. The mainstream body back then had AIDS. But then as always, there is a remnant that carries on following Christianity in true way God designed it.It simply defies knowledge and reason to say that Christian principles are responsible for atrocities committed in the name of Christianity when the Bible specifically teaches against this. Other forces are at work here.

I'm only saying that slavery has a stabilizing effect on society especially the society of recently conquered peoples.

The moral absolute is that slavery in itself is not evil, but is just another social institution. However, like everything else it can be perverted.The ideal society would have no slavery I think, but the ideal society cannot exist as long as men have sinful natures.

Thank you for your reply How very sad that you are so divorced from reality... It IS very sad if humanity is all we're living for anyways, so I can see how it would be hard for you to accept this, since doing so would destroy any motivation to make a difference in this life. I'm sorry, I'll have to try to start being more tactful... anyways:What if you and I met at the local coffee shop to debate our views in person. What if the argument became a little heated and I just out of the blue told you to go sexually amuse yourself and then gave you few slaps in the face. What do you think would be your first urge immediately afterwards? If you've ever seen kids, fight you know how this works.It is only after we gain control over our will that we can hold back our sinful urges. As I pointed out this is why self-discipline works so well in the Eastern religions. The thing is that they believe they are really good, but have to "realize" this and our good will then materialize. But they also place huge amounts of effort into becoming more self-disciplined. If humans are naturally good, why is self-discipline SOOO necessary to become good? Of course if we attain any freedom from subjectivity at all we also have urges to do good to others.If humans were naturally good, then when I cussed you out and slapped you in the face a few times, you'd IMMEDIATELY have the urge to hug me or bake me a pie or something and it would take self-discipline to start doing bad things.There is potential to do both good and bad in all of us. The problem is that even the slightest amount of bad makes us unacceptable to God's perfect Righteousness and Justice... but you do not understand this, so I won't go into it again.I think the idea that humans are naturally good and that bad gets worked into them by society is way off base and not at all supported by what you see in the real world. How does this explain the French revolution or the Nazi's or the Inquisition or Saddam's and countless dictator's evil regimes? Oh. Right. Their environment caused it all... Well at least we agree with the importance of parental love and discipline. Subjectivity: trains of thought where self or self-made ideas or selfishness form a skewed and/or self-centered view of reality.Everyone bases their morals to some extent on subjective experience and reason. It is the Bible that gives us confirmation or refutation of what this has found and lets us know with certainty what is right and wrong. Since the Bible did not come from us, but God, it is not self-made and, which is more, it is truth, and therefore provides an objective view of the world. ...whose constitution has been continually re-interpreted and has the ability to be changed. Information is necessary, but just as necessary is integrity. Even the most knowledgable people are suceptible to making choices based on what's in it for them. Power lust, greed, hidden agendas, arrogance of any kind blinds even informed people from the truth and causes them from making the right choice. I never said that. I do say that the MAJORITY of people think with their gut more than their head. Furthermore Our country still maintains a few features of a republic so it is not a pure democracy. Right. and where does the people's moral authority come from? Where's the relativism? The absolute standard is that slavery in itself is not evil, but a social institution. But like any other thing can be perverted and used for evil. Of course you and others think inequality is evil, yet equality never has and never will exist... but that topic is for another debate. No doubt. But have you ever had a job dealing with the public? Have you ever taken walks in the ghetto? Have you ever talked to the poorest poor and the richest rich? Have you ever talked to criminals in prison? Have you talked to those in nursing homes, or homeless shelters? Have you been to a neo-nazi rally or a WTO riot or a NAACP march? Have you ever picked cotton with a migrant worker? Have you been to a public school and been offered weed in the bathroom and seen countless fights or heard the students profaning the teachers and each other or been to a party that divulged into a drunken orgy? Have you lived through a battle and held your best friend dying from wounds from gunfire or watched another brother in arms jump on a live grenade to save you? Have you ever been to the brothels in India or the rice pattys of North Korea or fed starving chlidren in Nigeria been imprisoned by a guerrila faction in the Congo or watched a Christian be beheaded for his beliefs in Saudi Arabia?It is easy to attain a general mediocre view of people in the comforts we live in and the TV we watch. We have this simple average joe idea of people, but when you view ALL kinds of people in ALL kinds of situations you find out what human beings are really all about, both the good and the bad. lol! It's not depressing or pessimestic. It's realistic. "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man that thou vistest him?" And I do not find it depressing at all. In fact, the more I recognize my depravity, the more humbled I become and the more grateful I am for what Christ did to me. And the happier I become.If I placed all my hopes in humanity itself, THIS would be most depressing considering how humans disappoint time and time again and considering I disappoint myself and others time and time again and considering I would never know if humans got anywhere with their society or if they destroyed themselves with nukes or if an asteroid destroyed them all, since I would just cease to be in a few years anyways. No, if I placed all my hopes on humanity I would die of depression. HAHAHaha! HOW ironic. Now you are assuming the worst in me! As I said, every time I royally screw up and realize even more my own human depravity I am humbled immensely and made exceedingly happy! because I know that I am nothing and God is everything and yet he loves me!Sigh... I can see any debate between you and I will be pointless, Shraf. I'm sorry. I like your tenacity and candor, but neither one of us will budge on any of these issues. I have my philosophy which stems from the Bible and it fits reality perfectly to me. I see no reason why I should accept your arguments as valid.Thank you for this good and thought provoking reply!

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The moral absolute is that slavery in itself is not evil, but is just another social institution. However, like everything else it can be perverted.

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Wow.The ownership of one human being by another human being is not evil, according to you, and is just another social institution?I sure am glad I'm not a Christian.They are some radical ideas about morality.Did you know they don't have any moral objections to slavery?

technically all fundamental christians need to believe this -- it is in the bible ... or it is just another moral convention that has changed over the years as society becomes more civilized.btw -- this means it is moral to be a slave by the law of universality.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Jumping in to a more philosophical discussion than I usually frequent - Isn't humanity enough? Six billion of us, and that's all the sentient beings that we have even a speck of evidence for?