The Reagan Legacy

custard writes:

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Much like America's decision to enter WWII. Is FDR to be held responsible for not doing more or acting sooner to save the Jews extirminated in camps because now, in 2004, we know how bad it was in 1940?

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Yes.He was being directly told about what was going on in Germany by people who had escaped.He refused to do anything about it. Despite the fact that war had broken out in Europe, France had fallen, and Great Britain was about ready to follow, we still refused to do a damn thing until we got attacked.Regarding poverty and the living standards of those in poverty:

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Care to present your data showing how many people live out of Ryder trucks?

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Well, according to Lee Rainwater and Timothy Smeeding, Doing Poorly: The Real Income of American Children in a Comparative Perspective, Luxemborg Income Study Working Paper Number 127, August 1995, comparing conditions in industrialized countries, the United States is third from the bottom in living conditions for poor children. Only Israel and Ireland were worse.In fact, according to Lawrence Mishel and Jared Bernstein, The State of Working America: 1994-1995, the US has the highest level of poverty of industrialized countries.Considering how meager our social safety net is, this isn't surprising.

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One example of how this can be obtained is just about any poor person under thirty can join the military and qualify for practically a free ride (depending on the school they choose) once they get out after a few years.

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Are there no poorhouses? Are there no orphanages!And if you really think it's that easy to join the military (not to mention that the military would accept them), you have another think coming.

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There are also things called grants and scholarships and loans that most people can obtain in one form or another.

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Not nearly as many as there used to be.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

custard responds to MexicanHotChocolate:

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The rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

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That's a myth, it is untrue

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Incorrect.Bureau of Census:From 1950 to 1978, real family income growth:Bottom 20%: 138%
Second 20%: 98%
Middle 20%: 106%
Fourth 20%: 111%
Top 20%: 99%From 1979 to 1993, real family income growth:Bottom 20%: -15%
Second 20%: -7%
Middle 20%: -3%
Fourth 20%: 5%
Top 20%: 18%Edward N. Wolff, American Prospect, "How the Pie Is Sliced: America's Growing Concentration of Wealth," Summer 1995 states that from 1983 to 1989, over 60% of new wealth went to the richest 1% of the population and 99% went to the top 20%.The United States is the most economically stratified country in the industrialized world (Peter Gottschalk and Timothy Smeeding, Cross-national Comparisons of Levels and Trends in Inequality, Luxembourg Income Study Working paper 126, July 1995, measured as the ratio of earnings for the worker at the 90th percentile compared to the 10th percentile.)

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Well, it's not at all true that FDR did nothing. FDR did as much as he believed was possible. He pushed through lend lease, he played as loose as he could with the legalities to get the US ready to go to war and to support Great Britian (remember that was a world-wide effort) but could go no faster than the country itself and in particular, Congress.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar responds to me:

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Well, it's not at all true that FDR did nothing. FDR did as much as he believed was possible.

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Sending troops wasn't possible?London is being carpet bombed and FDR does nothing? He even refuses to run the blockade! People who have escaped the concentration camps come and tell him what is going on and it never dawns on him, "Perhaps we should enter the war"? He doesn't go to Congress to point out the travesty of what is going on in Europe, how it cannot be countenanced, how it will affect the United States, in order to convince Congress to declare war?

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but could go no faster than the country itself and in particular, Congress.

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He could have pushed, but he didn't. He was just as much an isolationist as everyone else.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Sending troops wasn't possible. FDR had just lost a couple fights with the Congress trying to get us out of the Depression. Remember the attempt to expand the Supreme Court?But what he did do was to move industry towards a war footing. He also expanded and updated our capabilities in the Pacific. More than most at the time he realized that it would be a two front war and that the key would be industry. That is something you don't just turn on. And had it not been for FDR pushing our industry into a war production mode it would have been a decade later before we were ready to go off to war.At the time you're speaking about, Britian was not being Carpet Bombed. In fact, carpet bombing did not come in until the US and Britain used it against Germany.this could be an interesting thread but it is not really on topic here.If you would like to discuss the events leading up to WWII and the key players, I'd enjoy discussing it with you. This is not the right thread though.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Custard writes:

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In addition to that, you are as upwardly mobile as you choose to be -within reason, you may want to be the next Bill Gates, but that is so much more than desire and dedication.

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Think about all of the potential "next Bill Gates" that the real Bill Gates is crushing and impeding due to his anti-competitive business practices.Oh, and what have the Hilton sisters done to earn their fabulous wealth?Let's say I live in Detroit and come from a blue collar family, and my child is bright but the schools are dangerous and horribly underfunded. My husband and I work for the auto industry and we make a good wage because of the labor unions, but I am unfortunately laid off (along with thousands of others)a year or two before my child is hoping to go to college. I get another job but it pays significantly less. She gets into a state school but is struggling because the Detroit schools didn't prepare her very well. She pulls herself together and graduates with good grades but has several large loans she will be paying off for years and years.Now let's say I live in Boston and come from a wealthy white color family. I am a stay at home mom because my husband is a wealthy investment banker. I also have a nanny and a cleaning lady. We have sent our child to wonderful private schools as well as summer computer camp every year, piano lessons and soccer, and now she is applying for several music and athletic scholarships. She is applying to all of the top universities, which we can of course afford to pay for without burdening her with any loans. After she graduates with her MBA, she'll be able to use her trust fund money to start her own business, buy a home, etc.Are you saying that the potential for upward mobility of these two children is exactly the same?Are the differences in earning power merely a choice, or are some people ahead or behind strictly because of the advantages they have/don't have growing up?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-21-2004 09:50 AM

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There are also things called grants and scholarships and loans that most people can obtain in one form or another

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My husband comes from a low income family, and both he and his parents had to take out loans to send him to the college of his choice, which was an excellent one because he is very bright, a National Merit Scholar, etc. He applied for every single big or small scholarship or essay contest he could find; so many that the university's financial aid officer commented about it when he arrived as a freshman. He is currently in his final year of graduate school. I work full time and make a decent wage, but it doesn't go far here because we live in one of the highest cost of living towns in the country.We are in our mid thirties. We have never owned a house. We have one ten year old car. It is very difficult for us to save money because the rent on our one bedroom apartment is almost $1,000/month.My husband and I still have $10,000 of student loans hanging over our heads once he gets his PhD.I report all this not to complain about our situation, but to show that getting higher education is very very expensive if you have to pay for it yourself.People who's parents pay for their higher education are going into their employment lives without any large debt, which automatically allows them to accumulate even more wealth more quickly.

Does this resounding silence mean custard couldn't cut the mustard?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Yes. You've overwhelmed me with all that data you presented. That, combined with your stellar analysis of the economic and political events of the eighties was just too intimidating.

Uhhhh... I didn't have to. I pointed out that it was YOU who had to substantiate claims of RR's miracle powers.The data (and analyses by the Cato Institute) you presented was incredibly flawed and I accurately pulled it apart. That is unless you care to show how my analyses of their analyses was flawed. You tried to once, saying you'd need to see some more data, at which time I pointed out some of it was within the report itself...Along those lines I pointed out that, ironically enough, the report you supplied, supplied the data you were requesting from me.They admitted that the WAGES WENT DOWN. That is a clear admission that the jobs being produced were on the whole NOT GREAT JOBS. The only thing they tried to do was tap dance around that admission by saying "well average benefits went up". Again, AVERAGE benefits do not mean everyone, and would be skewed by the still greater benefits that the rich (who relatively grew richer) would have received.Are you going to argue that the actual data presented in the report you provided did not show: increased work hours, decreased real wages, less savings, and a true relative decrease in economic position for the poor.Are you going to argue that that relative economic position was not skewed to make the rich look less rich and the poor less poor, by farming data from different parts of each strata?If you are, lets have it. If you are not, then let's have a real admission that you were not right and there is data (from your own hand no less) which supports my position.Intellectual honesty is a bummer ain't it?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I was 17 in 1984 when I enlisted in the army.I didn't give a rat's ass about politics at the time, but looking back on things, I now think I know why my father cried when I left for Italy after completing my training (I was assigned to a combat unit).Reagan's legacy for me is the crushing debt that the country still has to deal with. And of course his bald-faced lies in 'recalling' liberating concentration camps...