Any good books against ID?

Most anti-creationist books take on YEC. Anybody know good books against ID? YEC is easy to take out, however, ID is harder. I need suggestions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:
Andya Primanda, ‘want to see innumerable ID proofs that blows away the Mega-ToE?[/B][/QUOTE]Good idea, Jeff! Now I can start refuting his 'proofs'.btw, Philip, nice try. However appealing to Christianity would not work for me. I am not one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:
Not a Christian you tell the world? What are you, respectfully(besides evolved slime)?[/B][/QUOTE]Evolved Muslim slime. Happy?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:[/b][/QUOTE]--Respectfully, Andya primanda; how can Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindoo, or other apperceptive conscious psyches (A.K.A. spiritual beings) possibly evolve from slime (i.e., naturalistic chemicals and elements)? I’m assuming you concede (at least) that you have an apperceptive conscious psyche.--If you don't concede that you have a soul, I invite you to critique my meager hypothesis here on the proof of your spiritual existence.Sincerely,Philip

​

[This message has been edited by Philip, 06-26-2002][/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you are not familiar with my position? I believe that I have an immortal soul, which Allah would judge after my mortal body dies. Therefore I agree with your hypothesis. However I consider that my body has the mark of evolution in it. Allah commanded humans to be the leader of His creatures; leaders are selected from within their subjects, right? Our soul may be special, however our body is not.

I could have endorsed ID... if it wasn't because that nothing is perfectly designed. However, I can agree about one part of ID, that is about life as a whole. God is All-Benevolent. He creates life with the ability to evolve, so that His creatures may cope with the daily troubles of life and would not have a sealed fate of extinction.We can discuss further about this. Maybe we must start a new thread somewhere?

No, I don't think that evolution by means of natural selection is teleological. God gave the potential, it would be up to His creatures to take any path they embark on.However, the statement above is my philosophical assumption. My scientific assumption is that evolution took place as science discovers it.Even though scientific arguments are powerful, I prefer to use philosophical and theological arguments agains ID.

What is it that I said which made you think that I seek for redemptive design like you do? I for one do not adhere to the doctrine of redemption. Muslims seek salvation in one's own efforts. And redemption has nothing to do with the biological world either; if any, IMO, it is our selfish bodies that we must defeat in order to reach salvation. Or so it seem.

You are beginning to touch on some matters relating to an age-old debate of determinism vs free will, which we know that nobody know the answer except God. I am more on the free will side, because God is the Highest Justice, which would not punish souls over what they have not done. He does help us, yet in order to be fair He must not prefer some of his creations over the others (e.g revealing His word to some but keeping others in the stray path). Muslims believe that personal choices do matter, and God would not judge a soul for what he/she has no control of. However, these statements are based on faith and I have no way of proving it to you in this world. Maybe we can discuss it later in the afterlife? Anyway,one thing that made me deny ID (for theological reasons) is that evolution can be used as a scapegoat for bad/flawed design, rather than blaming God. Evolution is neither omnipotent nor intelligent; that way we won't have to deny God if we see flaws in nature. We should not suspect God of doing nasty things; that is where I find the concept of evolution useful. For instance, people can be killed by their appendix; why blame God for putting it there? Blame evolution.For everybody who had suggest books, thank you very much. I am considering the books by Pennock; should I buy the smaller one (Tower of Babel) or the larger (ID and critics)? I am after Harun Yahya; he's currently spreading creationist nonsense all over the Muslim world.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Philip:
Is this the only motive, Andya?

​

The primordial cause of evolution, with all its randomness and tentative natural selections, is God the Designer, is it not?

​

For the Designer must have infinite understanding (as per Ps 147, perhaps in the Koran as well), comprehending all elements, relations, force-vectors, etc., past, present, and future ... Else God is not all-powerful, deterministic in foreknowledge, etc.

---

Philip, I couldn't say it better myself! That is also my motive. God as I try to know him is IMO the prime mover of evolution, and He is constantly creating novelties in this world.About evolution as scapegoat: well, it's not my main motive. I'm interested in how God created the world and pursue that knowledge through conventional science. 'Evolution as scapegoat' is just a thought I picked up along the way, which may be used to preserve the integrity of God within my mind by letting evolution deserve the credit for dirty work.