Paleocurrents: the 'diverse' features of the GC were laid via rapid, correlated flow

EdgeCan you tell nme about the Mancos shale or the Pierre Shale?I'm aware that the non-marine beds can be extensive. If they are then they're not rivers! You don't need to be trained in geology to know that! Maybe deltaic but not rivers.

JoeOK, when I say 'zero paleocurrents in the Precambiran' I should say low spatial order. I admit I have based that on Chadwick's claim and am willing to recant!Chadwick's (and my) point is that the paleocurrents in the Precambrian are locally dictated (presumably by local 3D topography) and not non-locally dictated like those of the Paleozoic. I'm willing to be reeducated on the extent of non-localness of the Precambrian but that is not the same as simply showing that the Precambian has non-zero paelocurent observables as I have pointed out.

WehappyGood point about the Moine. I am basing my statement on Chadwick's stuff (see above post to Joe). The Moine example was an example of constant paleocurrent through time. Although we find that interesting we are even more interested in paleocurrents spatially. As I pointed out above I have no problem with local non0-zero paelocurrents in the Precambrian. The issue is spatial correlation.The straights of Gibraltar might be expected to display high velocity non-zero paelocurrents but not necessarily the rest of the Mediterranian.

MooseI agree with much of your post and see above.By the way, I was introduced to paleocurrents by Pettijohn this January and formed my own impression of their significance.I strongly suspect that most of the paleocurrent data is from marine rocks because most rocks are marine! But I could be wrong.Q: Why do you still think that non-mariness would be a problem for us? Spatially ordered non-marine high velocity beds are diagnostic of the/many floods aren't they?

Wehappy, anywhere there are non-zero paleocurrents there is going to be regional consistency so we can agree on basinal 3D topography issues. We all understand that - it couldn't be any other way. I'm talking about continent-wide consistency and that is where Chadwick claims the Paleozoic and Mesozoic differ from the Precambrian and Cenozoic. If there is no mainstream collection of data on this then that is a mainstream lack. Chadwick has done the global story and that is his conclusion. I can't find a mainstream gobal view. Can you?

WehappyChadwick also says: "In the Mesozoic the currents exhibit increasing variability and shift from predominantly westerly to predominantly easterly." so I presumed there was still some continental tendancies. But in totality Chadwick is saying that is is primarily a Paleozoic phenomenon so I'll stick to the Paleozoic as being continent wide.The point is that the currents were sufficient to leave ordered paleocurrent observables. I still am almost 100% sure that shallow modern day epeiric seas would not display correlated paleocurrent obsevables! No-one here from either camp has been able to come up with anything relevant to this point other than intuition.And of course if these observations also extend to non-marine beds that is even more interesting for us.

EdgeThe paleocurrent researchers invariably explain the local data via local 3D topology. It is difficult to find mainstream apraisals of the continental trends.Easterly flowing streams don't generate anything like the epeiric sea deposits or the typical non-marine beds! These beds are sheets of strata not river beds! Please take those mainstream blinkers off and look at the strata. The geological column is nothing like what we were taught in kindergarden. It's not rivers and swamps - it's vast epeiric marine deposists and huge fresh water flood plains whether Noahic or not!!

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-18-2002]

MooseI wish I could find a summary of the nature of non-marine beds but because you guys are primarily uniformitarian the idea that they could be correlated isn't really raised mainstream! I do plan to study some papers on large non-marine beds.

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-19-2002]

Edge, your suggestion that streams could account for paleocurrents measured in vast sheet like beds is bizaree to say the least. That is why, to me, it sounded like you still believed the stories we learned in 'kindergarden'*. The average layman thinks the column is due to eons and eons of swamps and rivers. Go ask them. It most certainly is not.* Whenever I use the term kindergarden I mean things we learned as laymen via TV, school and, yes, kindergarden. My primary school teachers at the very least taught me about long ages of swamps.

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-20-2002]

EdgeI would suggest that most of the non-marine beds worldwide are flood deposits - Noahic for us, regional for you. My reading s so far indicate this to be potentailly true for the large non-marine deposits.I'm also waiting for the velocity data and comparison to the same modern envirionments. Someone here should put a grant porposal in and do the work. Maybe I will. I switched from physics to biology . . maybe geology next?I'm aware that the layman swamp impression of the geological column comes from dinosaurs. But I bet layman would have a different impression of creationism if you told them that the continental geological column is dominated by invasions of the sea and vast fresh-water beds that cover US state sized areas. Can anyone here deny that this is the true nature of the geological column? I know no-one can deny this becasue it is an empirical fact!

^ Are you sure you're not just a little biased Edge?

JoeWelcome back (to you and your back).I backed (a lot of backs around here) off from saying the pC paleocurrents were zero. I now say that they are non-correlated - so due primarily to 3D topography but I'm only basing this on Chadwick so I'd be quite happy to completely recant in the light of mainstream data.In our model we expect ordered paleocurrents for the high energy components of the flood. Empirically this is what we see in much of the Paleozoic. It is not ridicuous and it is not a baseless expectation. If marine innundaitons were rapid, even tidal wave like then we expect to see something exactly like the Paleozoic.BTW, so what exactly is the basis for identifying paleosoils in the column? Terrestial eroded surface? Terrestial habitats? Sediment constituents?

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-25-2002]

^ Whether it was tsunamis or continental scale tectonic slopes the Paleozoic tells a story of vast spatial coordination. But we are plauged by a lack accesible clear presenation of all the data. Even Chadwick's site doesn't distinguish between marine and non-marine.You forgot to address my qustion on paleosoils from last post.

I do plan to be able to get to this stage (primarily via mainstream and creaitonts reading). At this point all I can say is that the more I read mainstream the more I am convinced that the nature of the geological column is more compatible with the Genesis Flood than mainstream explanations. Tas Walker seems to have the most detailed empirical flood model whereas Baumgardner et al have the most tectoncially detailed model. Primarily I'm wanting to read mainstream and form my own impression. Anything I said now would be pure speculation.

EdgeThere's a slight differnce between noting that the true nature of the geological column is vast non-marine innundations and vast fresh water flood deposits and proposing a detailed model! The first is something that any scientist can do by reading the literature, the second is a day time job! Nevertheless the first is a non-trivial result for me and gives me confidence in the detailed work of career flood geologists.If I am stretching on the paleocurrents then mainstream explanations are stretching far more. I came to my conclusions on paleocurrents from my reading last (S. hemisphere) summer. Since then I found that AIG/ICR geologists and especially Chadwick have come to the same conclusions.

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-27-2002]