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Author Topic:   mentally, the ark makes sense...
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 16 of 53 (98300)
04-07-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
04-06-2004 10:28 PM


Unique, researchers use the words, "last bastion"
The Neandertals’ last bastion appeared to be the Iberian Peninsula, where fossils from a Spanish site called Zafarraya have been dated to 32,000 years ago and tools attributed to Neandertals have been dated to around 28,000 years ago.
Neandertals were living in some of the most desirable real estate in central Europe as late as 28,000 years ago.
Fred H. Smith, The Fate of the Neandertals, Scientific American April 2000, p. 106
**
Hmmm... now wanted that "choice real estate I wonder......?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 04-06-2004 10:28 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 04-07-2004 2:47 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 17 of 53 (98323)
04-07-2004 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by SRO2
04-06-2004 8:24 PM


remember the christian charity to your family, rock
Posts: 1005
From:
Registered: Sep 2002
Message 1 of 1
04-07-2004 12:34 AM
My impression is that your postings have been pretty consistently devoid of real content. Most recently, I was looking at your contributions at
"10 cubits across and 30 cubits around".
I suggest you look at the Forum Rules, and decide which ones you are violating.
Rocky,
Did you see the warning (below) you got?
Remember the theoweb thru you off!
Shape up and stop the non-sense. Remember the charity these Christian rendered for you and your family when you were all destitute. Dhow some respect, even if you attempt here to malign and besmerch my repetution before I had a chance to let my posts speak for themselves.
Thank you however for clearly evidencing that we are far and removed from one another.
(Rocky... did you read this warning?...
"Stick to the topic, and get some relevant discussion into your messages. Also, you've started at least a couple of dubious topics. Lay off that also."
This is a official warning.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by SRO2, posted 04-06-2004 8:24 PM SRO2 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 53 (98326)
04-07-2004 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by kofh2u
04-07-2004 12:37 AM


Re: Unique, researchers use the words,
As noted in previous discussions, the neanderthals existed from 200,000 years ago to about 30,000 years ago, while homosap has existed from 160,000 years ago to present.
An overlap of about 130,000 years that represents an appreciatable portion for both species = 76% of neander existence and 81% of our existence. Hardly what you could characterize as a sudden flood in any system I am aware of.
I also see that you start again with the false ad hominum and totally irrelevant attack on another thread.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by kofh2u, posted 04-07-2004 12:37 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by kofh2u, posted 04-07-2004 7:18 PM RAZD has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 19 of 53 (98532)
04-07-2004 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
04-07-2004 2:47 AM


Re: Unique, researchers use the words,
"About 40,000 years ago an appreciable population explosion in Modern Homo is evidenced in the fossil rocks."
That is the flood.
Sure, I am certain a little explanation will make the simpliest ideas confusing.
Yes, many Hominoids co-existed at one and the same time.
All disappeared but the flood of Homo Sapiens.
Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men (hominoids) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen. 6:2 That the sons of God (pre-Homo Spaiens) saw the daughters of men (Neanderthal) that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen. 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit (of Natural Law) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh (and must adapt to my Reality): yet his days, (Neanderthal) shall be an hundred and twenty (thousand) years.
Gen. 6:4 There were giants (Homo Erectus) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (pre-Homo Spaiens) came in unto the daughters of men (Neanderthal), and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men (hybrids leading to Modern Homo Sapiens) which were of old, men of renown.
Gen. 6:5 And GOD, (the Reality of Universal Power) saw that the wickedness of man (including Neanderthal) was great in the earth, and that every imagination of (his abstraction of Reality) the thoughts of his heart (or his psyche) was only evil (and unrealistic) continually (as regards the process of adaption).
Gen. 6:6 And it, (the evolutionary process), repented the LORD that he had made man (all hominoids in general) on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart (that cataclysmic changes were to come).
Gen. 6:7 And the LORD, Almighty Universe) said, I will destroy man (of these types and species) whom I have created (to mentally, in analogy, abstract consciously a model and schmata of Universe) destroy them from the face of the earth (extinction!); both (this species and kind of) man, and (his idea of) the beast, and (his idea of) the creeping thing, and (his idea of) the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[This message has been edited by kofh2u, 04-07-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 04-07-2004 2:47 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 04-09-2004 2:30 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 31 by Steen, posted 07-01-2004 9:07 PM kofh2u has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 53 (98854)
04-09-2004 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by kofh2u
04-07-2004 7:18 PM


Re: Unique, researchers use the words,
Kofh --
It has taken some time for me to get to this to the degree that I felt it deserves. Your basic premise is that:
"About 40,000 years ago an appreciable population explosion in Modern Homo is evidenced in the fossil rocks."
That is the flood.
As you know I have problems with this as an analogy, and it is based on problems in two basic areas.
(1) Factual:
The evidence to actually match population shifts against archaeological records is very slim and in dispute. For instance not everyone agrees on what population levels were at different times in the past. I have been looking for this information and just not finding it with any great agreement in timing and numbers -- it seems pretty speculative at this point. In at least one case (Searching for the elusive first humans) there is no overlap between the demise of H neander and the population explosion of H sapiens:
Anatomically modern humans occur in Africa over 100,000 years ago, but their technology was no different from that of Neanderthals who survived to at least 30,000 years ago. Art is only found sporadically from 40,000 years ago to 20,000 years ago, after which time it is clear that there is a major expansion of populations, and the rapid development of food production in some parts of the world.
The population explosion of H sapiens was possibly 10,000 years after the demise of H neander, which also followed about 10,000 years of co-existence. This would mean the demise would not be related to the population explosion.
Usually in human history a population explosion has accompanied a new technology -- tool making, metallurgy, nomadism, agriculture, industrial, etc. - more than by expansion into a new area. Expansion only allows the same population densities as before in a larger area so population is proportional to area, while new technologies allow greater population densities everywhere, and usually by factors.
Obviously there can be many interpretations of the data, and at this point I don't think anyone can say for sure what was going on back then. Was it all conflict or was there cooperation? Some people think some fossils show there was interbreeding and others say the DNA data tells us there wasn't (an speculative solution that would allow both would be that offspring were sterile ... 'mules'). We also know from our history with the natives in North America that the diseases brought along for the ride can be as devastating (if not more so) than the battles.
There is also evidence that H ergaster\erectus was the first hominid to leave Africa (Dmanisi fossils), followed by H neander, and that both were in place when H sapiens moved into their areas.
The 'flood' scenario does not unequivocally match the data for populations, nor does it match the usual pattern and reason for population explosions. The analogy is flawed on a factual basis.
(2) Philosophical:
The concept of a people flooding an area is not the usual expression used by those involved -- usually it is one of conquest and heroics, overcoming monsters and such. The conquest of the American West, for instance, is not portrayed as a flood (a much more rapid displacement of the native population than the period of fossil overlap of H neander and H sapiens would allow).
Most particularly those involved in the rapid expansion across new lands are not a few surviving members of a flood managing to husband the survival of all flora and fauna in the process.
If people are the flood they cannot also be the survivors of the flood. The analogy breaks down on a philosophical basis.
I also see no reason or benefit to it, but that is my opinion.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by kofh2u, posted 04-07-2004 7:18 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by kofh2u, posted 04-09-2004 1:09 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 46 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-06-2004 10:19 PM RAZD has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 21 of 53 (98916)
04-09-2004 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
04-09-2004 2:30 AM


Re: Unique, researchers use the words,
1) Obviously after searching and searching you are reluctant to grant the analogy.
Am I trying to convince you?
Of course not.. Those who read us are the audience I speak to, and surely they appreciate the fact THAT someone as astute and erudite as yourself... can NOT fault me.
That for their sake, you have tried and tried, is enough.
By reasonable doubt, I feel free of your criticism to continue.
2) You have insisted that there is NO ration explanation for an actual flood. A flood which you have most certainly denied, and presented massive evidence against in other posts, have you not?
3) I think you can not have it both ways, that the flood was not literal nor analogy, which leaves us with only YOUR "proof," by default, that it is myth.
That myth is what you mean to prove by default of no reasonable explanation explains your opinions which you spare between paragraphs of induendo. You would present the flood to be evidence that the Holy Scriptures are a LIE at worst, and a worthless FABLE, at best.
4) So, let me proceed then on the basis that you have failed here, and with the intellectual integrity I would assume to stand between us, hopefully you may poke a hole elsewhere in my take on these two Holy Books.
Fair? I don't exactly "win," yet, but you sure are hard pressed to fault the literary technique of metaphor, true?
5) As regards the use of "flood," in the sense of huge numbers of people suddenly moving together, symbolic dictionaries might be a better resource for us.
However, the simile of "waters" meaning "peoples and nations" IS explicit in Revelation. The idea of an army "flooding the land" of the enemy is use also in scripture.
Nevertheless, this whole story of the flood is only part of a much larger concept in my literary critique of Genesis. As it turns out, much of the story is constrained by a specific technical device, sort of a "key' to the nature of the literature. That is to say, I have much evidence and an number of exhibits to allow the following statement:
Genesis IS NOT Hebrew poetry nor prose. Genesis IS a script for a live presentation of the Hebrew epic It is a drama.
As such, much of what is read in Genesis is missed and misconstrued because of the technique by which it is presented.
6) Old Testament:
Jer. 46:8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.
7) New Testament:
Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 04-09-2004 2:30 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 04-09-2004 7:13 PM kofh2u has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 53 (98972)
04-09-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by kofh2u
04-09-2004 1:09 PM


spin spin spin
spin it how you want Kofh -- what I also could not find was corroboration for your position. There just isn't enough data available to state what the populations were back then with sufficient assurance. To my mind an area of that size co-populated by two types of hominids for 10,000 years before one dies out cannot be considered as due to a population "flood" of one type over another.
THAT someone as astute and erudite as yourself... can NOT fault me.
That for their sake, you have tried and tried, is enough.
By reasonable doubt, I feel free of your criticism to continue.
IMHO your concept can be called a classic Post hoc, ergo propter hoc logical fallacy as it looks back to make a connection between unrelated phenomena.
If the fact that it fits neither known facts of fossil record OR the biblical descriptions of the flood (who was flooded, what was saved, etc) is not enough to slow you down, why should any other criticism?
We've been here before ...
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by kofh2u, posted 04-09-2004 1:09 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by kofh2u, posted 04-10-2004 2:13 AM RAZD has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 23 of 53 (99050)
04-10-2004 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
04-09-2004 7:13 PM


Re: spin spin spin
You are limit in your ability to understand...
Dan. 12:3 And they that be wise in those end times, (educated and
thoughtful), shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness (in the wisdom and knowledge (of Hebrew scriptures) as the stars for ever and ever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 04-09-2004 7:13 PM RAZD has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 53 (101614)
04-21-2004 5:18 PM


so kofh2u
help me out.
You have to understand that I'm old and got arthritus so I'm not as agile as I ustawas. I've been trying to follow the reasoning in this thread and frankly, I guess I'm just not nimble enough anymore. So if it's okay with you, I'd like to slow it down to just a Texas two-step at least 'till I get a second wind.
Step one...
Are you saying that "The flood, the great footwetting, was not about water but rather a mighty wave of people?"
Step two...
Are you saying that there is something called "an upper and lower hominid?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
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MexicanHotChocolate
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 53 (115270)
06-15-2004 3:18 AM


The problem with believing that Noah's flood was a global event is that there is not and never has been enough water to cover the entire Earth to the level of mountain peaks. If there was, where did it go? There is evidence, on the other hand, for a localized flood that destroyed an early society so suddenly that the survivors remembered it as the catalysmic events recored in Genesis and the Gilgamesh Epic.

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 26 of 53 (115888)
06-16-2004 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by MexicanHotChocolate
06-15-2004 3:18 AM


bible people won't accept metaphor/science denies literal
The obvious metaphor for a flood which is just ending mow, the wave of Homo sapiens population that began as a ripple 40,000 years ago has eliminated all other close relatives, perhaps with the exception of one or two Big Foots.
The supposed science experts here (at flashing URL references) deny the common sense of a metaphor concerning our known co-habitation with Neanderthal, in particular, (perhaps others, too). They ignor that we are little changed from the day 40,000 years ago, and that part of our nature is to reportsuch stuff forward. It is realistic to assume that such a co-habitation did exist, because of the fossil record. It is sensible to believe the tales in the Bible which confirm just that event, inbreding. It is stubborn anti-scientific attitude to stick to denegrating ANY bible message just out of hand, and it is just dishonest, too.
But, why wpuld supposed honest educated science people argue aagainst literal interpretations and merely ridicule metaphorically?
Because they are simple against the Bible and the Bible people, totally. The easy mark of Creationist and water floods is their target. The honest reinterpretation of the way men centuries ago misread the ideas of Genesis is an anathema to them...BECAUSE then the Bible is way powerful, having evolution clearly reported long before these guys even thought ablut it, science guys of all ages, that is.
That, maybe the story in the bible is a way to assure that the tale would ultimately reach us, since over the dull ages of thousands of years, without some artistic license and some appeal to simple story telling that seemed reasonable, we would never get the paleonthological reports from guys way back then, to match what we are discovering today, for ourselves.
But, the religious people bought a literal story centuries ago. They stick to stories like glue.
Know why?
Because they HAVE other stories they KNOW are a hard sell, so they actually believe they are softening people up for resurrection talk and eternal life, etc, by being unbelievable stubborn about the facts compared to the Genesis Analogous day interpretation.
What they do not know is that, with genetics, resurrection is just a matter of time, tho' a shot in the dark at 6.66 billion to one... hey, wait... that one resurrection per each generation, now...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Unseul, posted 06-16-2004 10:09 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 32 by Steen, posted 07-01-2004 9:12 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 53 (115889)
06-16-2004 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by kofh2u
06-16-2004 10:00 PM


Re: bible people won't accept metaphor/science denies literal
tho' a shot in the dark at 6.66 billion to one...
Im guessing this number was just picked out of the air? Or maybe the relevence of 666 as the number of the beast was relevent? Just wondering. Is it because our population is reaching (reached the number of the beast (in billions) that we're going to be redeemed?)
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
Do unto others before they do unto you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kofh2u, posted 06-16-2004 10:00 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by kofh2u, posted 06-17-2004 12:25 AM Unseul has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 28 of 53 (115934)
06-17-2004 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Unseul
06-16-2004 10:09 PM


Re: bible people won't accept metaphor/science denies literal
yeah, sort of, and a little bit of each of your suppositions.
The chance of the exact right genes coming together, to recreate a person, we know is a long shot. But the pool is gigantic at populations of 6.66 billion people now.
Still, the thing is that Jung and freud thought that our Unconscious Mind, 75% of the mind, is a storehouse of our whole phylogenetic existence as a species. They thought that it had tremendous input which we are unaware of, and that there was a metaphysical Collective contact between us all, via this resource.
It is recreated, our Unconscious Mind, in the reconstructing of the next generation. It contains the memories, and metabolic programs, and instincts, stored to operate unconsciously. The Unconscious Mind has been storing long accumulations of our conscious behavior, to,...so we may have a jolt WHEN it becomes conscious, just as our subconscious has been so enhanced this last century.
In that storehouse is a replay, or a play back, of our life, lives, even the whole evolutionary trek of our part in the species itself.
In this we would/will experience the eternity of the past, as opposed to the present hope to have one after death.
What a switcher rue that will be. Judgement day and all, by the opening of our vast unconscious minds...seeing the endless past... remembering... as if dreamy angels... knowing... all too well.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (of Total Consciousness) and a new earth (from the sociological behaviors resulting) thereafter: for the first heaven (of semi-consciousness) and the first earth (of Paganistic practices) were passed away; and there was no more sea (of unconscious behavior).
This message has been edited by kofh2u, 06-16-2004 11:35 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by sidelined, posted 06-19-2004 1:16 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 33 by Steen, posted 07-01-2004 9:21 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 29 of 53 (116619)
06-19-2004 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by kofh2u
06-17-2004 12:25 AM


Re: bible people won't accept metaphor/science denies literal
kofhu2
But the pool is gigantic at populations of 6.66 billion people now.
Just so I can claim the title of nit-picking aa-hole of the year I feel that we must grab a more accurate population figure.From the U.S. census bureau at this website
U.S. Census Bureau: Page not found we find these stats.
According to the International Programs Center, U.S. Bureau of the Census, the total population of the World, projected to 6/19/04 at 4:07:34 GMT (6/19/04 at 12:07:34 AM EDT) is
6,375,298,746
only shy by a couple hundred million.Not quite number of the beast but give it time.LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by kofh2u, posted 06-17-2004 12:25 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by kofh2u, posted 06-21-2004 7:04 PM sidelined has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 30 of 53 (117290)
06-21-2004 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by sidelined
06-19-2004 1:16 AM


Re: bible people won't accept metaphor/science denies literal
hahahaa..
We still have time, then, have we not?
As the old cartoon of Pogo used to remind the reader, "I have meet the enemy, and he is me.?" Modern Homp sapiens, the sixth major evolution sitting upon the sixth head of a revived Roman paganism, in the sixth historical era of a Technological Age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by sidelined, posted 06-19-2004 1:16 AM sidelined has not replied

  
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