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Member (Idle past 477 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The bible and homosexuality | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hangdawg13 Member (Idle past 751 days) Posts: 1189 From: Texas Joined: |
To butt in here:
I believe the attraction in itself is not a sin, but a temptation to sin. I would guess that the homosexual attraction is a combination of many factors. I know that there are thousands of homosexuals who became het after becoming a Christian and being epistemologically rehabilitated. I think these people have started a website with testimonials. Edited to add: by the way SleepingDragon, I think you ought to be commended for being the most mannerly and least emotional of any member on this site. This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-13-2004 11:55 PM
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
There are also thousands of homosexuals living in a state of self-loathing, repression, and fear due to growing up in a good Christian environment...
To someone who does not believe homosexuality is immoral, "epistemologically rehabilitation" sounds downright frightening, especially if a genetic basis for homosexuality exists.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I know that there are thousands of homosexuals who became het after becoming a Christian and being epistemologically rehabilitated. No, there's actually not. Oh, there's plenty of people who were convinced that all their problems would go away if they just bit the bullet and had sex with folks they weren't remotely attracted to, but as it turns out, not a one of them stopped being homosexual - i.e. stopped being sexually attracted to folks of the same sex. And why would they? Why would we expect sexual orientation to be so fluid in most cases that you could just flip-flop? HD, tell us - what would it take to flip your sexual orientation? What would it take to get you to stop being attracted to women and start enjoying sex with men?
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Hangdawg13 writes:
quote: Incorrect. There aren't any gay people who have turned straight. Not one. Oh, there are plenty of people who say they've converted, but when you actually sit them down and talk to them, ask them if they still feel attraction to people of the same sex, you find that those feelings haven't gone away. They've merely been suppressed. Thus, they aren't straight. Straight people don't find people of the same sex sexually desirable with any regularity. There's a reason that the various organizations who claim to provide "reparative therapy" don't keep track of their "graduates." They invariably find that it didn't take, they are still attracted to people of the same sex, and most of them go back to expressing their sexual desires. They can't even keep their spokespeople from going back to their old ways. Exodus has had a horrible time trying to keep their success stories out of the media for going back to their gay ways. The foundersTHE FOUNDERS admitted to themselves that this "reparative therapy" was a crock, fell in love with each other, and left. Then there's Paulk, who right after his cover story in such places as Newsweek was found in a gay bar hitting on other men. Forget the fact that he was still gay...he was married. What happened to his wedding vows? Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Sleeping Dragon Inactive Member |
To Hangdawg13:
I believe the attraction in itself is not a sin, but a temptation to sin. I don't know if you realise this, but this is one hell of an important distinction to make, and I am very happy you hold this view.
I would guess that the homosexual attraction is a combination of many factors. I know that there are thousands of homosexuals who became het after becoming a Christian and being epistemologically rehabilitated. I think these people have started a website with testimonials. Ouch. You don't want to go there. Consider: why don't we make heterosexuals under go epistemological rehabilitation to become homosexuals?
Edited to add: by the way SleepingDragon, I think you ought to be commended for being the most mannerly and least emotional of any member on this site. Considering that I was warned by admin for being emotional and impolite on another thread a couple of weeks ago, I am in no position to comment on this. But thanks anyway. "Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Besides the fact that I have become arrogant and am no longer viewing her honorably as a child of God, but an object for my sexual gratification. Who said she has to be an object? Why can't she be another person that you find physically attractive, with whom you want to share an enjoyable experience? I'm not suggesting wiping yourself on her knee, tossing five bucks on the bed and walking out the door or anything, here. "Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief. And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears" -Beck
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Zachariah Inactive Member |
The dance example is a joke. The tendens anf ligaments they work to stretch were made to work in those ways. Just because you can force somethiing into an opening doesn't mean that it was made for that. But you can always talk yourself into anything if you try hard enough. -Z
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PecosGeorge Member (Idle past 6873 days) Posts: 863 From: Texas Joined: |
is a sinful act. Unequivocally unqualified.
Whether or NOT gay people marry is of no concern to me. God made no provision for Adam and Steve, or the bible would state so clearly and there would be no question, as there is not question regarding Adam and Eve.
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PecosGeorge Member (Idle past 6873 days) Posts: 863 From: Texas Joined: |
have you ever had your intestines scoped? The natural impulse of the sphincter muscle is to expel the object inserted.
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
The dance example is a joke. The tendens anf ligaments they work to stretch were made to work in those ways. Just because you can force somethiing into an opening doesn't mean that it was made for that. I don't think the dance example is a joke - I don't believe that tendons/ligaments/muscle are made to do splits, or allow someone to bend their body in half, or dead lift several hundred pounds. Humans train them to be capable of that - just as someone can train their anal sphincter to relax (and enjoy!) having something placed in it... Considering all of the 'unnatural' things people do with their bodies - wearing clothes, eating cooked/processed foods, staring at a computer screen for hours at time, etc.; it seems silly to say that in this one sexual context biology dictates proper use (and by extension morality).
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:Including taking medication to cure/alleviate illness. And surgery. Medicine is a very unnatural practice that most fundamentalists seem not to have much problem with.
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
My (heterosexual) marriage ceremony was performed by a homosexual man.
I find it an interesting societal contradiction that a homosexual can legally perform and bless a marriage but not legally be married himself. A homosexual (fornicator!) can be a judge, religious leader, boat captain - not to mention teacher/senator/doctor/etc... If homosexuality represents such a danger to society, why let homosexuals take such jobs? Homosexuals can lead religions or perform brain surgery, but are not ethical or moral enough to be husbands or wives? Ridiculous...
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4060 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
Sorry, got busy again. Haven't been able to get back here in a while. I don't know what's been said between the post I'm responding to and this one.
Why the trepidation? Slavery and subordination of women are pretty big, immoral no-noes in my estimation. The fact that Paul promoted both is enough for me to conclude that his epistles are of no moral value whatsoever. I'm sure they are in your estimation. First, I don't believe that Paul "promoted" slavery. He did discuss it with no attempt to put an end to it. Slavery has been common in a number of societies where it bore no resemblance to the awful things that happened to blacks in the United States, and where it was little different than an employer/employee relationship in the U.S. I live in a community of about 200 people. The women here live in what we believe is the same subordinate role Paul would have approved of. Any of the single ladies living here, and there's a dozen or so, could walk away today, and not one of them wants to. Probably the most typical comment from visitors to our village is how peaceful it is and how happy everyone is. You're welcome to call a submissive role for women immoral. I don't agree with you, a significant percentage of America doesn't agree with you, and I don't think I see anything in mainstream western society that lends much authority to its views on the matter. But then, I'm also sure I would define Paul's idea of a submissive or subordinate role for women much different than you would.
I asked why it is that the bible never condemns the cowardly actions of Lot in Genesis 19. Care to answer that? I didn't see that this was relevant. I think you're drawing assumptions about my views on the Bible from my comments about Paul. The story of Lot is a very old story and comes from a society much different than the one I live in. I think what Lot did was awful.
I think I could find more than a very, very few people who would agree that slavery is immoral. You're right, you could, and if we're talking about the American version of slavery, you'd find me among those. I'm not sure that I'd agree that the 19th century version of slavery in India was immoral, although the caste system that it was a part of I agree is awful. Either way, that's one. You said many.
Perhaps I might also find at least a significant minority who would agree that women should be allowed to speak in the church. Here's two, but this doesn't apply to the issue of immoral for two reasons. One, people who agree that women should be allowed to speak in church might very well not agree that a man who didn't allow that speaking 2,000 years ago, in that society, was necessary immoral for going along with his society's attitudes in that area. Two, and more significantly, it would be likely to be a minority who would agree that Paul didn't allow women to speak in church. He talks about women praying and prophesying in the same chapter. Female prophets are mentioned in the NT. Paul described Phoebe and Prisca as fellow workers, and Junia as being "of note among the apostles." It's awful hard to be certain what he was talking about in 1 Cor 14.
Perhaps I'm naive, but I have enough faith in mankind to feel safe in saying that almost all civilized people, at least here in the Western Hemisphere, have come to realize that slavery is immoral. My complaint is not about your moral views. Obviously, we have a different opinion on the morality of practicing homosexuality, which would have been obvious, I think, even prior to this discussion. But on the subject of Paul, my complaint is your harsh judgmentalism of him. I think you have taken his words in the worst possible way, ignored his cultural context, and condemned him as immoral based on those judgments. I would add that I think you're putting the slavery he spoke of in an American context, and I don't think that's accurate, either. In the end, your conclusion that "The fact that Paul promoted both is enough for me to conclude that his epistles are of no moral value whatsoever," is, in my opinion, unjustified.
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MexicanHotChocolate Inactive Member |
The plain fact is that all of the references to homosexuality in the Bible are about men humilating and degrading other men by treating them like women as women were seen as being below even a donkey (see the 10th commandment). It was a common practice in Biblical times for a victorious general to humiliate the defeated general by raping him. The Bible never speaks against consentual acts of homosexual sex. In fact the Bible never even mentions consentual sex between people of the same sex except a vague passage about Jonathan and David some have interrupted that way.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Zachariah responds to me:
quote: And what makes you think your anus isn't made to stretch and work in that way, too? It's a muscle just like any other. If you exercise it, it becomes stronger. By your logic, a bodybuilder shouldn't lift weights because by stressing and pulling on those muscles, they'll just get weaker and weaker until they can't be used anymore. Just because you are incapable of doing the splits doesn't mean anybody else who can is some sort of unnatural freak of nature. What is different about the anal sphincter that unlike every other muscle in the body that becomes stronger with heavy use, it actually becomes weaker? You do know that there are people who engage in fisting, yes? That's where you take your entire hand, usually much bigger than any penis, and insert it completely into the rectum of your sex partner. Some people are so adept at this that they can two hands. And strangely, none of these people have a problem with "anal leakage." So if anal sex with something as big as your arm doesn't cause any problems, how could something as small as your penis be of any concern? Take a deep breath, relax, and use plenty of lubricant.
quote: Who said anything about "forcing"? Your mouth is an entry, fight? You're supposed to take food in through your mouth, right? Well, if I force food into your mouth, I'll break it. I can easily knock out your teeth, tear open the corners of your mouth, and cause other serious damage...possibly even kill you in the process. But that doesn't mean that the mouth should never be used to take in food. It simply means you shouldn't force it. What makes you think anal sex requires any forcing? If you're forcing it, you're doing it wrong. Take a deep breath, relax, and use plenty of lubricant.
quote: It doesn't matter how much talking you do. If you don't want to do it, it will not be pleasant. And that applies to penis/vagina sex. That's why it's called "rape" and why rape kits can tell just by looking at the way the vagina bruises if the sex was consensual or not. When a woman tenses up and a man has to force his way inside, damage is done. So why are you picking on anal sex when it's no different from vaginal sex? Take a deep breath, relax, and use plenty of lubricant. Vaginal sex is commonly painful for women when they first have intercourse precisely because they haven't learned how to control their vaginal muscles. They have to learn how to relax so that their partners don't have to force it. How is that any different from anal sex? Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't mean nobody else does. Perhaps instead of whining about how it's impossible, you should find a good teacher and learn how it is done. I'm always astounded by those who claim that something "can't be done" or "isn't designed to do that" when simple observation shows that it is easily done and thus must necessarily be designed to do that. "You can't use a dime as a screwdriver! It was never designed to be one!" And yet, I find no difficulties in using a dime as a screwdriver in many cases. Who are these people who say that what happens right in front of their eyes is impossible? Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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