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Author Topic:   Is Creationism Science?
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 27 (11354)
06-11-2002 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jet
06-11-2002 5:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:

***A bit of a loaded question Joe. First, science should never quit! But science should learn to deal with the fact that certain things and events, even though supernatural, can be studied scientifically.***
Shalom
Jet

This is marvelous !
I must have asked John Paul this very same question, several hundred times:
How do you recommend we detect, evaluate and verify ANY supernatural phenomena, scientifically ?
Because, unless you can provide an answer to this, we must conclude that science deals with physical, material phenomena.and philosophy or theology deals with the supernatural.
If science is limited ( and it is in this case ) to realm of the physical and the material then it cannot comment on the supernatural.
Do you watch TV shows with a radio ?
Science can’t detect the supernatural, so why consider it, scientifically ?
Your comments betray an acute ignorance of real science, but you can remedy that.
Science doesn't need to learn that there may be more to reality than the domain of science ( the material, physical universe). Creationists need to learn it...and they need to learn that science is limited from commenting on the supernatural.
jeff
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jet, posted 06-11-2002 5:23 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by John, posted 06-11-2002 10:07 PM Jeff has not replied
 Message 19 by Jet, posted 06-12-2002 2:59 PM Jeff has replied

  
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 27 (11416)
06-12-2002 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jet
06-12-2002 2:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
I think you missed a post or two. You should probably catch up on your reading.
Shalom
Jet

Indulge me, please, I’m not very smartor educated. It was you who advised:
[b] [QUOTE] Originally posted by Jet:
science should learn to deal with the fact that certain things and events, even though supernatural, can be studied scientifically.
[/b][/QUOTE]
Enlighten us all and reveal the secret to detecting the supernatural and using science to evaluate it.
You wouldn’t hoodwink us by offering bogus advice, now would you ? Then make good your recommendation that science study the supernatural.
How should we do that, exactly ?
jeff
BTW- which posts do you suggest I catch up on ? I will try to read them.
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jet, posted 06-12-2002 2:59 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Jet, posted 06-13-2002 12:11 PM Jeff has not replied
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 06-13-2002 3:20 PM Jeff has replied

  
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 27 (11502)
06-13-2002 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Percy
06-13-2002 3:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Hi Jeff,
Jet correctly points out that he has already answered this question (check Message 7), but I've been remiss in clarifying why I defined the supernatural as unobservable. From your post it seems like you might take a similar view.

Thanks Percy,
All I needed was the message number referenced. I appreciate the fact that you don't expect me to read every single post on the message board to find out how some people parade nonsense around as science.
[b] [QUOTE] So what's supernatural? The spiritual! There is no way to observe, measure or quantify the comfort of God's presence or the rapture of accepting the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, it can only be experienced.
And I guess there are other supernatural areas, such as "feeling" that something has happened or is going to happen, or seeing apparitions that aren't there and so forth.
So I'm not really too worried about observable supernatural phenomena. They never seem to happen where there's science going on.
--Percy[/b][/QUOTE]
I would classify 'feelings' or emotions as intangible, rather than strictly supernatural. From a physical, materialistic POV, the 'supernatural' appears to be ignorance shrouded in mythology and descended thru oral traditions.
If so, we can all feel free to add any sort of irrational nonsense to the list of supernatura phenomena.
thnx again,
jeff
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 06-13-2002 3:20 PM Percy has not replied

  
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 27 (11512)
06-13-2002 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jet
03-15-2002 4:10 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
... debaters on the evo side do not limit themselves to the scientific arena. They like to claim that they do but exactly the opposite is true. True science is often abandoned to maintain the evolutionist argument. Those who deny this either are not paying attention, or are willing trying to mislead someone.

Examples would be nice. It could be refreshing to actually agree on something.
[b] [QUOTE] Also, I have long contended that all evolutionists, at least all that I have been exposed to, are indeed creationists. They may or may not be willing to be classified as IDers, but as far as being creationists, there is no doubt. For most, abiogenesis is the creator, and with the acceptance of a creator you are automatically qualified as a creationists.
[/b][/QUOTE]
The difference being, abiogenesis is theorized as a ‘process’ that began with inanimate organic compounds and resulted in metabolizing cells that reproduced. Nothing was created. A process was started.
You may also notice that no one attributes the creation of the universe to abiogenesis either. So you may believe scientists are ‘creationists’ if it gives you comfort. Being merely a belief, you are not required to substantiate it to anyone else’s satisfaction. For that matter, you may pretend scientists are plastic soap dishes who control the weather on Jovian satellites with an electric train.
[b] [QUOTE] And as to supernatural, you seem to have some neo-understanding of the term. Supernatural events can indeed be observed with the senses. Their observance does not negate the fact that they are supernatural.
[/b][/QUOTE]
Ah.you mean their ‘alleged’ observance.
[b] [QUOTE] A comet streaking across the sky is not a supernatural event. It is viewed with the eyes, and noted as an observable event. It may be regarded as spectacular, but not supernautral.
However, a comet streaking across the sky, and then by the power of Almighty God, is made to stop in its place, remain motionless for a time, then descend to the earth, resting on the surface of the oceans for a period of time, then again ascending into the outer heavens and then finally made to go backwards along the same course from which it came, this is completely supernatural, even though it also is observable. To somehow claim that this observance is not supernatural but rather is now a "natural" occurance simply because it has been observed, it to have a skewed and erroneous understanding of the term "supernatural" in the extreme sense.
[/b][/QUOTE]
First of all, you didn’t present an example, but a hypothetical — that is unless this said event really WAS observed.
Secondly, why should we pretend an event is supernatural simply because we observe behavior not previously understood ? In your hypothetical, there may be hundreds of rational explanations:
-Extra-terrestrials were playing with a massive yo-yo
-It was home-movie night on the International Space Station and the projector was pointed out the window.
-the entire crowd at an outdoor Rock concert ignored the warnings: Do not eat the purple acid
An observance is just that: an observance. It isn’t a conclusively supernatural until all rational explanations have been considered and then falsified. Even then — science cannot conclude it was supernatural. It doesn’t have the ability to detect and evaluate anything outside of nature. If you are determined to document verified Supernatural activity, you’ll have to use something other than science to do so. That would be like trying to cut open a hole in the sun with a pair of scissors as you stood on the ground.
If you want to pretend that certain phenomena is supernatural, just because you aren’t interested in rational answers, then you’ve just cheapened the whole concept. I haven’t figured out how Santa Claus can visit every house on earth in the span on a single night. He’d have to reach speeds unattainable by KNOWN flying reindeer.and even if they could go that fast — they'd disintegrate in a nanosecond from the aerodynamic friction.
Yup. That must be supernatural.
[b] [QUOTE] Were this phenomenom a repeatable occurance with no outside interference from the Almighty, then yes, I would agree it is within the realm of natural.(It would also require a rewrite of the laws of physics).
[/b][/QUOTE]
Or just a new understanding.
[b] [QUOTE] The very act of intervention by the Almighty, denying and negating the natural laws of time, space, motion, gravity, physics, etc. demands its' classification as a supernatural, .
[/b][/QUOTE]
What very acts of intervention by the Almighty ?
You mean like my Santa Claus example ? Do you agree that the Almighty and Santa Claus are equally valid, supernatural entities ? What about Elvis ?
You speak as if acts of divine intervention have been documented, fully verified and enjoy universal agreement in the scientific community. You can’t use ancient sacred text to substantiate an ‘alleged’ supernatural event in the past. These texts were written by ignorant men, no matter their inspiration.
Yeah, I may not understand the supernatural, but you’re foundering on reality.
[b] [QUOTE] though observable, event. When the natural laws are superceded by a supernatural being, that my friend, "IS" completely supernatural, observed or not.
[/b][/QUOTE]
That makes as much sense as If it’s supernatural — then it must be supernatural.
You are implying that such things are real, without bothering to substantiate them.
But what value are meaningless hypotheticals ? We could sit around all day long and suppose all sorts of unlikely events. What’s the point ?
-If - something is supernatural, it supercedes nature.
Boy, that’s a BIG if. Big, but virtually worthless as an explanation. What’s the difference between that hypothetical and these:
If things weren’t the same, they’d be different
If my Aunt Martha had a mustache, She’d be my uncle Ralph.
Yes, I suppose it could be true.but so what ? Where is the value of knowing something so meaningless ?
What would it explain ?
Your examples offer nothing to science or to the understanding of alleged supernatural events.
On the other hand, if you were to develop some process by which we might scientifically investigate, evaluate and verify alleged supernatural events — THAT would be something of value.
LOL but that’s the same as saying: If things weren’t the same, they’d be different
Well, they ARE the same. They aren’t different. Aunt Martha ISN’T Uncle Ralph.
Simply wishing there is a God, or a Santa Claus.or supernatural events doesn’t make them so.
So until there is tangible evidence to suggest there is a supernatural, the only reason to reject science and rational explanations for these unknown events, would be to adhere to a religious agenda.
and that ain’t science.
jeff
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jet, posted 03-15-2002 4:10 PM Jet has not replied

  
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