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Author Topic:   Probability of God
stuckeys
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 55 (72697)
12-13-2003 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-24-2003 7:13 AM


The title of your message caught my attention. It happens that it is also the title of my book, which was released by Random House a couple of months ago. (The Probability of God, Crown Forum, 2003). My method involves the application of Bayes' theorem to systematically assess the evidence for and against the existence of God, and to determine its probabilistic implications. 67% is the result I reach! (There's a little more info about it at stephenunwin.com)
Best
Steve Unwin

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Andrew Troup
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 55 (91827)
03-11-2004 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by stuckeys
12-13-2003 2:23 PM


Taking issue with an interview with Unwin on NZ radio
I listened this morning to an interview with Dr Unwin, in which he was asked to provide an instance of an item of "evidence" whose probability he had systematically assessed.
The example was well chosen: evolutionary theories which seek to account for apparently irrational extremes of altruism.
I apologise if my response does not do justice to the arguments in the book, which I have not yet had the opportunity to read. I can only plead that it is at least based on his own explanation of a sample argument, rather than a review by a third party.
My problem? Dr Unwin lined up an explicit hypothesis, drawing a plausible causal relationship between evolution and behaviour, against a catch-all proposition, namely that everything which science cannot explain can be scored as one for God.
Surely it is misleading to provide such a "default cause"-- one which requires no evidence for a causal relationship, rather simply a spurious absence of alternatives to such a relationship, caused by having set up a false dichotomy in the first place?
To try and explain this another way, this approach collapses a virtually infinite range of alternative explanations, many of which might fall on the science side of the line, into evidence for the existence of God.
To instance a couple of alternative explanations (NB: These are hypotheses, not statements of fact):
1) Genes are pruned by evolution to discourage non-altruistic behaviour. A plausible mechanism would be the non-survival, to critical mass, of social groups which do not display altruism, in comparison or competition with groups which do. Excessive altruism would not be specifically selected against by evolution, unless it threatened survival. Instances of altruism to strangers are statistically rare and not typically survival-threatening, in the sense of survival of our genes. Even the ultimate (and vanishingly rare) example of self-sacrifice to save a stranger is only punished by evolution if we have not yet bred to capacity.
2) Individuals bear genes fashioned by evolution, but individual behaviour exhibits fluctuations from the exact circumstances which fashioned those genes. Nurture vs Nature, free will, etc etc.
3) Altruism could be evidence for religion, rather than for God. We know religion exists, but we are supposedly (in this discussion) keeping an open mind on God. In this context, the purpose of religion is to provide society with a coherent and persuasive set of guidelines for behaviour.
The fact that these guidelines sometimes work for "good" does not rely on the existence of God, just as the fact that they sometimes emphatically do NOT work for "good" (as in Ireland, Bosnia and the Middle East) does not disprove the existence of God, or altruism.
4) Why God? It seems equally plausible to postulate manipulation of our behaviour (in the direction of irrational altruism) by, say, a more sophisticated life-form from elsewhere. There is plenty of corroboration, in the form of UFO sightings. Should we believe these? No, but we do not, or should not, automatically believe individuals who claim to have witnessed God.
Admittedly there is a huge disproportion in numbers in favour of God vs little green men. I willingly concede that organised religions *have* been phenomenally successful, but success does not necessarily validate - witness Adolph Hitler, or daytime television.

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jacketsfan4life
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 55 (110531)
05-25-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Andrew Troup
03-11-2004 7:28 PM


Re: Taking issue with an interview with Unwin on NZ radio
This title caught my attention but i think a better question is the probability of evolution occuring. The idea is the amino acids formed in to proteins into cells and so on, but the problem is that for amino acids to join togetherinto a protein you need about 100 to combine in the exact right order. The best description I heard about the actual chances of that happening are greater then the chances of a twister going through a garbage dump and leaving behind a fully functional 747.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4755
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 19 of 55 (110533)
05-25-2004 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jacketsfan4life
05-25-2004 11:24 PM


Welcome and Advice
Welcome to EvCForum, Jackets.
I would suggest you read over the forum guidelines for a starter.
You have violated one guideline already by not sticking to the topic of this thread.
In general you would also do better if you acquainted yourself with some of the material and discussions that have been posted here already. In this particulare case you are confusing the issue of the orgin of life with the evolution of living things after that orgination. They are separate issues.
Others please do not show jacket how his probability calculations are incorrect as well. That would be a continuation of the off topicness of this. Thank you.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 55 (110579)
05-26-2004 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jacketsfan4life
05-25-2004 11:24 PM


The best description I heard about the actual chances of that happening are greater then the chances of a twister going through a garbage dump and leaving behind a fully functional 747.
I'd like to see your math, please. What exactly are the odds of getting a 747 out of a junkyard? How many trials did you do?

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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 55 (110587)
05-26-2004 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
05-26-2004 2:30 AM


Are you saying there is a chance of such an event?.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 55 (110589)
05-26-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by almeyda
05-26-2004 3:22 AM


Are you saying there is a chance of such an event?.
No, but he seems to be, which is why I want to see his math. As far as I know, what he's talking about is impossible, which is why I thought it was an inappropriate anaolgy to describe an unlikely but possible event - spontaneous formation of polypeptides.
If I told you that "the odds of you getting three heads in a row on coin tosses is the same as you flapping your arms and being able to fly", wouldn't you say I was wrong? Hell, I've gotten three heads in a row plenty of times. I've never flown by flapping my arms. It doesn't make sense to compare a possible event to an impossible one.

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 Message 23 by AdminNosy, posted 05-26-2004 6:44 AM crashfrog has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4755
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 23 of 55 (110609)
05-26-2004 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
05-26-2004 3:26 AM


TOPIC!
Back on topic. Ok?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 55 (110612)
05-26-2004 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by AdminNosy
05-26-2004 6:44 AM


Firstly, it's a dead-end crank topic.
Therefore I feel it's appropriate to shift a dead-end topic into a related topic. Since I'm still talking about probability, I'm still on topic.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1752 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 25 of 55 (110672)
05-26-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-24-2003 7:13 AM


Interesting that Mr. Jack equates god with zero. Zero is a number often associated with god. God is often described as BEING itself; and all things held into a state of BEING by god. Zero is the number that implys nothing which is the state from which everything is actualized. The probability of there being a god is the same as the probability of there not being one. If the probability of god = zero, then the probability of there being no god = zero. Since the number for god represents zero then this equation suggest the existance of god if one takes into consideration that god=0. Of course the point is moot from the beginning since either position is equally valid and can not be verified in my opinion.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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Jex
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 55 (116604)
06-18-2004 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dr Jack
11-24-2003 7:40 AM


Leaving aside for the moment fulfilment of scripture, miracles and other signs which indicate a God, surely the raw probability of God existing must be 0, because probability is a calculation based on the expected outcomes. Since God is supernatural, he is not an expected outcome.
This is not to say that he does not exist, but simply that there cannot be a probability assigned to his existance.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Romans 1:20

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crippler04
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 55 (138336)
08-31-2004 1:13 AM


I'd say that the probability of there being a God is 50/50. Just like someone who posted earlier said, God either exists doesn't. I personally believe God does exist and let me explain to you why.
Most people who don't believe in God believe in evolution and the big bang. The theory of evolution I agree with, even though I also believe in God. I also believe that the Big Bang took place, but it was created by God. How else could matter just appear out of nowhere. Something had to create it. things just dont make themselves. Television didn't appear one day, someone created it, just like with any other man made product on the earth. So how could the Big Band or anything of that sort happen if there was nothing there to begin with. And even if there was something there, what created that something. Just like what created elements. There has to be some supernatural force that created everything, or else nothing would be here in the first place.

  
Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 55 (140228)
09-06-2004 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by sidelined
11-24-2003 8:34 AM


am no mathematician but it is my understanding that if we can place actions governed by laws of physics and parameters on the likelihood of a universe supporting an infinite intelligence through the available material in the universe, then we should be able to offer at least a range of probability.
Hmmm... the question assumes that God just sproated up, which is not claimed by the theistic community. We believe that God always was (so he doesn't have a starting point or ending point), and was the first cause of the universe that we see today. Its illogical to assume that God's existance is contingent on these probabilities that you are referencing.

"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4925 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 29 of 55 (140544)
09-06-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
05-26-2004 6:51 AM


Firstly, it's a dead-end crank topic
Oh, yeaaaaah! so well put it makes laugh! True but very funny!
lfen

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 999 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 30 of 55 (141025)
09-08-2004 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-24-2003 7:13 AM


Ooo, I'm taking a statistics class right now, so maybe I can make some sense here.
What is the probability of the existence of God? Is there a way in which we can put numerical values,even rough ballpark figures that allow for a guess,or is the idea worthless?
Since I'm assuming by "God" you mean the creator of everything, and since it is obvious that SOMETHING exists, the question then becomes, "what is the probability reality exists by a supreme being's will?"
So, the first thing I've learned is that you must find the number of points in the sample space. On a cube die there are six sample points in the sample space. Rolling the die is an event in which one outcome or point on the sample space will be selected (assuming all sample points are equally likely to be selected, IOW one side is not heavier causing it to fall on that side more often).
On the question of the cause of reality, we must list all the possible outcomes or sample points in the sample space. TTBOMK there is only one sample point that exists: God's will. In this case the probability that God exists is 100%. If you can come up with another reason reality exists that is mutually exclusive to the existence of God as the creator, that increases the sample space to 2 and reduces the probability that God as the creator and sustainer exists to 50%.
Now if you assume that there was a "time" when nothing existed before the big bang, then at that time there was no sample space, no mathematics, and no time in which events could occur so I think probability is meaningless there.
Hope that made sense.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 09-08-2004 04:03 PM

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