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Author Topic:   Use of Science to Support Creationism
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 16 of 122 (106270)
05-07-2004 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by almeyda
05-07-2004 1:55 AM


Re: ...
The evidence for a old earth is not as overwhelming as it looks.
Others have already pointed out that it's actually more overwhelming that it looks. I just thought I'd add that it was deeply committed Bible-believing Christians who grudgingly came to the conclusions that the Earth is old and there was no global flood, before Darwin wrote any of his works. They came to those conclusions because the evidence for an old Earth and no global flood was overwhelming, even in the late 1700's and early 1800's when these geologists lived and worked. Since then we have examined hundreds of times more evidence, and all of it indicates that the Earth is old and there was no global flood.
Creationists have found no evidence for a young Earth outside of their peculiar interpretations of the Bible. They have found one or two things that aren't fully explained yet, and might indicate an old Earth or a young Earth. Don't bet your life savings on that evidence indicating a young Earth when the chips are down.
It's truly sad that you think that parroting claims from unreliable and prejudiced websites is discussion. You obviously know nothing about the subject and have not even thought about the subject; you just swallow whatever AIG feeds you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by almeyda, posted 05-07-2004 1:55 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by almeyda, posted 05-08-2004 6:59 AM JonF has replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 122 (106547)
05-08-2004 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by JonF
05-07-2004 11:25 AM


Re: ...
Your right i do swallow all they tell me. I thank them everyday for showing me the truth. Without them i would still have been an athiest with no truth with no purpose or meaning. More over evolution has got serious problems!...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by JonF, posted 05-07-2004 11:25 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-08-2004 7:57 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 29 by JonF, posted 05-09-2004 9:41 AM almeyda has replied

  
BobAliceEve
Member (Idle past 5395 days)
Posts: 107
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Joined: 02-03-2004


Message 18 of 122 (106556)
05-08-2004 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by almeyda
05-08-2004 6:59 AM


You are not helping
Hi Almeda,
I am trying to avoid being offensive so I hope this is taken as kindly advice: please be truly scientific and truly Christian when you post. Both can be accomplished. Most of the people posting here are decent enough to be excellent friends. If you can't love them then at least respect them. I am guessing that you became un-athiest through gentleness.
You and I agree that there are problems with the theory of evolution but beating on people will not help. It appears that you are not a scientist - and I lack expertise in most fields. I learn a great deal here so I invite you to enjoy the reading.
I am trying to locate a scientist with whom I can work on each of several topics which I think would, if established as fact, prove evolution impossible. So far, I have located only one but have not been able reconnect with him/her.
I do want to point out that our fight is with poli-titions (people who set poli-cy) and not with scientists. Policy setters are the ones using the theory of evolution as fact - no one here will claim that the theory is fact. As I see it, we have choices: 1) fight the polititions, 2) work to prove evolution impossible, 3) wait until the Creator's return. We can do all three!
Thanks for your patience,
Bob, Alice, Eve

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by almeyda, posted 05-08-2004 6:59 AM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Denesha, posted 05-08-2004 8:41 AM BobAliceEve has replied
 Message 20 by mark24, posted 05-08-2004 8:48 AM BobAliceEve has not replied
 Message 21 by sidelined, posted 05-08-2004 12:20 PM BobAliceEve has not replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 122 (106562)
05-08-2004 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by BobAliceEve
05-08-2004 7:57 AM


Re: You are not helping
Hi BAE,
Nice to read you once again.
Are you seriously working on a study aiming to prove evolution impossible?
Why not start with a smaller subject first.
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-08-2004 7:57 AM BobAliceEve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-10-2004 11:48 AM Denesha has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 20 of 122 (106564)
05-08-2004 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by BobAliceEve
05-08-2004 7:57 AM


Re: You are not helping
BAE,
I am trying to locate a scientist with whom I can work on each of several topics which I think would, if established as fact, prove evolution impossible. So far, I have located only one but have not been able reconnect with him/her.
What did you have in mind that would prove evolution to be impossible? (Unscientific lexicon in italics).
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-08-2004 7:57 AM BobAliceEve has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 21 of 122 (106595)
05-08-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by BobAliceEve
05-08-2004 7:57 AM


Re: You are not helping
BobAliceEve
Policy setters are the ones using the theory of evolution as fact - no one here will claim that the theory is fact.
You are correct the theory is not a fact in the same way that a map is not the territory.Evolution is a fact {the territory} and the Theory of Evolution is the model {the map}
The theory of evolution is our best framework to explain what actually exists as an event evident in our observations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-08-2004 7:57 AM BobAliceEve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 05-08-2004 12:23 PM sidelined has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 122 (106596)
05-08-2004 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by sidelined
05-08-2004 12:20 PM


The Map is not the Territory
Damn, SI once again wakes up to throw the debate in Congress into termoil.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by sidelined, posted 05-08-2004 12:20 PM sidelined has not replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 122 (106734)
05-09-2004 4:07 AM


...
Does the fact that in todays observable world nothing cannot ever become something prove that evolution is impossible?.. I mean throwing around millions of yrs to give the impression that anything can happen with chance doesnt really change much does it? A creationists one said that its a bit like leaving your computer on without no operating system or software and hoping that one day or a million yrs the computer may do the calculations you would want it to do. (thx for any replies to this).

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by sidelined, posted 05-09-2004 5:00 AM almeyda has replied
 Message 28 by JonF, posted 05-09-2004 9:39 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 30 by jar, posted 05-09-2004 10:21 AM almeyda has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 24 of 122 (106739)
05-09-2004 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by almeyda
05-09-2004 4:07 AM


Re: ...
almeyda
I mean throwing around millions of yrs to give the impression that anything can happen with chance doesnt really change much does it?
If I understand you correctly you are talking about evolution and are yourself operating under the impression that evolution works by chance alone. This is a misunderstanding that is somehow constantly circulating even today. Evolution works through not just chance but also through natural selection.Natural selection is the enviroment surrounding a creature throughout its lifetime and includes hazards such as predators ,climate change,and any chance occurances that work tfor or against the creature reaching an age of reproduction.And,yes,this is sufficient to explain the process of evolution and all the wonderous diversity of life upon Earth.
Chance by the standards you are operating on would be a little like the monkeys hammering out the works of Shakespear.By random process we would of course expect eons to pass before they could be expected to go from one end of reproducing shakespears works to the other with no errors in spelling.
Natural selection though works by {taking our monkey authors and their keyboard hunt and peck methods} locking in proper combinations as they occur which rapidly allows Shakespear to be accurately reproduced.Let us take the phrase "to be or not to be" and for simplicity's sake we will condense it to "tobeornottobe".
Now I will allow you to perform the experiment yourself.Go to your keyboard,close your eyes and rapidly punch in keystrokes randomly while counting to 20.Then go over the apparent gibberish and when you find the first "t" circle it then locate the next letter "o",circle it and proceed until you have found "tobeornottobe".Let me know how many letters you went through in all until you had the whole phrase.
Fast and efficient isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 4:07 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 5:42 AM sidelined has replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 122 (106740)
05-09-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by sidelined
05-09-2004 5:00 AM


Re: ...
What your explaining is Evolution after its arise. What im asking about is the explaination of the beginning. How nothing became everything. Evolutionists have long taught that all life on earth originated from a single ancester cell. But 3 fundamental types of cells are thought by scientist to form the building block of life, actually evolved independently, not in orderly succession from a common ancestor. It seems like the hopeless task of explaining how one ancestor organism could arise from dead matter triples in difficulty. The simplest cell is considered super complexed. I take you back again to a quote i wrote in a different thread. "Prebiotic soup is easy to optain. We must next explain how a prebiotic soup of organic molecules, including amino acids and the organic constitutes of nucleotides evolved into a self replicating organism. While some suggestive evidence has been obtained, I must admit that attempts to reconstruct this evolutionary process are extremely tentative" - Dr Leslie Orgel
P.S - gjrjk"b"mdjj"r"majdnjdj"t""e"kh"o"akegf"n"nv"n"nmhbmamgkakjghkkmbfmskpep"o"kgha,lslkfkfaeij"o" taeanalug"r"ughvngerh"t"rwjhtj"t"kylkymklkjsjlmkjkukuiljyu"o"efafmek"t""e""b"klslmv;v bnkjlai"o" --- Must they be in order? Because i did reach the letters but i dont think in order
edited to add a space to break up long line of chars to fix page width - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 05-09-2004 11:01 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 122 (106755)
05-09-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by almeyda
05-09-2004 5:42 AM


But 3 fundamental types of cells are thought by scientist to form the building block of life
...3 cells? I'm only familiar with two types of cells: plant cells and animal cells.
What's the third? And moreover, don't you think the fact that all cells have essentially the same organelles is pretty clear evidence that they're related, somehow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 5:42 AM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 122 (106758)
05-09-2004 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by almeyda
05-09-2004 5:42 AM


almeyda
Let's look at your selected quote.
"Prebiotic soup is easy to optain[sic]. We must next explain how a prebiotic soup of organic molecules, including amino acids and the organic constitutes of nucleotides evolved into a self replicating organism. While some suggestive evidence has been obtained, I must admit that attempts to reconstruct this evolutionary process are extremely tentative" - Dr Leslie Orgel
Please read it fully.
quote:
Prebiotic soup is easy to optain.[sic]
Here it says that the necessary beginning chemicals and state are easy to obtain. So that part should not be a problem.
quote:
We must next explain how a prebiotic soup of organic molecules, including amino acids and the organic constitutes of nucleotides evolved into a self replicating organism.
Here, it shows that the question next is to explain how that mix changed into something that was alive.
quote:
While some suggestive evidence has been obtained,
And that there is evidence that suggests the change from inert to live might well happen. Many experiments certainly show things move towards increasing complexity.
quote:
I must admit that attempts to reconstruct this evolutionary process are extremely tentative.
The last part. Just what does this sentence mean?
The key word is tentative.
Here. all that is said is that all of the results are not yet in. And that is correct. No one has yet demonstrated exactly how the chemical stew made the next transition from inert to living. But as he says, that is the direction that all the research seems to be pointing.
So even the good Dr. Leslie Orgel seems to think that it is only a matter of time before the exact process itself is known, understood and demonstrated.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 5:42 AM almeyda has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 28 of 122 (106759)
05-09-2004 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by almeyda
05-09-2004 4:07 AM


Re: ...
Does the fact that in todays observable world nothing cannot ever become something prove that evolution is impossible?
Certainly not, because in today's observable world nothing becomes something all the time, as predicted by quantum mechanics and observed in literally thousands of ways. The observation that is easiest to understand is the Casimir effect.
I mean throwing around millions of yrs to give the impression that anything can happen with chance doesnt really change much does it?
Of course, anything can happen with chance. Add a filter like selection and all sorts of things will happen. The claim that evolution is all chance is another creationist lie.
A creationists one said that its a bit like leaving your computer on without no operating system or software and hoping that one day or a million yrs the computer may do the calculations you would want it to do.
The technical term for that is "strawman fallacy"; ignopring your opponent's real theory and making up a false theory that can easily be attacked. Evolution is nothing like that; selection makes all the difference.
This message has been edited by JonF, 05-09-2004 08:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 4:07 AM almeyda has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 29 of 122 (106760)
05-09-2004 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by almeyda
05-08-2004 6:59 AM


Re: ...
Your right i do swallow all they tell me.
So you really are that gullible, you don't have any interest in truth or reality, and you really think that spreading lies is acceptable because you are doing it for Jesus.
Pathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by almeyda, posted 05-08-2004 6:59 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 10:58 AM JonF has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 122 (106772)
05-09-2004 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by almeyda
05-09-2004 4:07 AM


It's not simply Chance and random.
You said
I mean throwing around millions of yrs to give the impression that anything can happen with chance doesnt really change much does it?
but that is not exactly how things work.
First, there are changes and mutations going on all the time. These changes can be beneficial, neutral or bad. All three happen. The changes that are very bad are the changes that will not let that individual reproduce and so those changes very quickly get weeded out of the pool.
The neutral changes are just there. They continue until something in the environment changes and they become either a good or bad change. Again, if they are very bad, the individual gets weeded out of the reproducing pool.
The good changes are the ones that allow the individual to compete better in a given environment or to move into a new, less competitive environment. They help the individual reproduce.
But remember, we are also talking about many individuals, not one individual.
Consider the dice analogy. The odds of rolling one die and it coming up two are 6 to one. But if you roll ten dice, what do you think the likelyhood of one of those ten coming up two will be?
This is a simple test that you can do for yourself. Just get ten dice and roll them. Record the number of times that one of the ten comes up two and repeat this experiment ten times. Let us know what happens.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by almeyda, posted 05-09-2004 4:07 AM almeyda has not replied

  
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