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Author Topic:   The Origin of Novelty
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 46 of 871 (689824)
02-05-2013 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by RAZD
02-05-2013 12:10 AM


So that's the first mutation that leads to an eye ? Ok fine,gets go with that. so then I just need a mutation which leads to a dimple or depression somewhere on my body and I will be able to feel that sunlight even more. Amazing.
Next we need the dimple to be passed to the next generation. I have not yet heard of these skin dimples which get passed along like this, would it be like a dimpled chin? It's still kind of hard imaging a dimpled chin focusing light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2013 12:10 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-05-2013 3:59 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 48 by Taq, posted 02-05-2013 10:55 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 52 by dwise1, posted 02-05-2013 3:21 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 54 by Blue Jay, posted 02-06-2013 11:09 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 02-07-2013 7:02 PM Bolder-dash has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 871 (689825)
02-05-2013 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bolder-dash
02-05-2013 3:42 AM


Do try to understand the fairly simple concepts that are being explained to you.
If you sincerely can't understand them, that's not really our fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-05-2013 3:42 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 48 of 871 (689857)
02-05-2013 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bolder-dash
02-05-2013 3:42 AM


So that's the first mutation that leads to an eye ? Ok fine,gets go with that. so then I just need a mutation which leads to a dimple or depression somewhere on my body and I will be able to feel that sunlight even more. Amazing.
No, you will be able to tell which direction the sunlight is coming, and also which direction shadows are coming from.
Next we need the dimple to be passed to the next generation. I have not yet heard of these skin dimples which get passed along like this, would it be like a dimpled chin? It's still kind of hard imaging a dimpled chin focusing light.
Are you saying that you have never heard of a mutation being passed on? Perhaps you want to think about that one for a second?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-05-2013 3:42 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
broken180
Junior Member (Idle past 4065 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 07-31-2012


Message 49 of 871 (689879)
02-05-2013 1:51 PM


Hi, have been a member a while, only posted a couple of things, this does interest me though.
So in the picture in message six, I presume that picture one and picture six are the ones based in reality and the rest is just the imagination of an evolutionist?
So what mechanism is it that leads to new genetic information? I know that mutation leads to loss of information but can be beneficial, and natural selection is a mixing up and reducing of the genes, but I am not sure what it is that produces the new genetic information?

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-05-2013 2:47 PM broken180 has not replied
 Message 51 by Taq, posted 02-05-2013 3:13 PM broken180 has not replied
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2013 6:01 PM broken180 has not replied
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-06-2013 3:26 PM broken180 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 50 of 871 (689880)
02-05-2013 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by broken180
02-05-2013 1:51 PM


Hi, have been a member a while, only posted a couple of things, this does interest me though.
But you've never replied back...
So in the picture in message six, I presume that picture one and picture six are the ones based in reality and the rest is just the imagination of an evolutionist?
No, they're all based in reality.
So what mechanism is it that leads to new genetic information?
Mutation.
I know that mutation leads to loss of information but can be beneficial, and natural selection is a mixing up and reducing of the genes, but I am not sure what it is that produces the new genetic information?
Mutations don't just lead to loss of information, they can add to it too. Dublication, Insertion... stuff like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by broken180, posted 02-05-2013 1:51 PM broken180 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 51 of 871 (689883)
02-05-2013 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by broken180
02-05-2013 1:51 PM


Hi, have been a member a while, only posted a couple of things, this does interest me though.
So in the picture in message six, I presume that picture one and picture six are the ones based in reality and the rest is just the imagination of an evolutionist?
It is a proposed pathway by which there is a selectable advantage at each step showing that eye development is attainable by selection. Also, there are living species with each type of eye. For example, the planaria has a simple depressed eye spot.
So what mechanism is it that leads to new genetic information?
Until you show us how to measure genetic information that is impossible to say.
I know that mutation leads to loss of information but can be beneficial,
Then evolution does not need to produce new information in order to evolve novel functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by broken180, posted 02-05-2013 1:51 PM broken180 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 52 of 871 (689884)
02-05-2013 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bolder-dash
02-05-2013 3:42 AM


I just need a mutation which leads to a dimple or depression somewhere on my body and I will be able to feel that sunlight even more. Amazing.
Next we need the dimple to be passed to the next generation.
OK, you are presenting this scenario in which we have a mutation that causes a small depression on the body, a "dimple", that can then better sense sunlight. This is now a given in this scenario.
What you are questioning in this scenario is how this mutation could possibly be inherited by this organism's offspring. Well, that depends on what kind of mutation it is.
You have body cells (somatic) and you also have gonads that produced gametes (germ cells). If the mutation is a developmental change caused by external factors (eg, the mother having ingested certain substances, such as alcohol), then that mutation would not be hereditary -- these are the gross mutations that are readily apparent and are the primary basis of the claim that all mutations are harmful. If the mutation is genetic, but is localized in a small area of body cells (eg, the development of skin cancers due to UV irradiation), then that mutation would not be hereditary. Only those mutations that happen in the gonads and/or the germ cells, which would then be passed on to that offspring to become part of the genes that develop into that offspring, would be hereditary.
The only kind of mutation that is of any interest in evolution are those mutations that can be inherited.
What kind of mutation are you proposing here? If it can be inherited, then it is a trivial fact that there is nothing to prevent it from being inherited. If it is a type that cannot be inherited, then it is of no interest to this discussion.
So what's your problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-05-2013 3:42 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 53 of 871 (689891)
02-05-2013 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by broken180
02-05-2013 1:51 PM


Hi broken180, and welcome to the fray.
So in the picture in message six, I presume that picture one and picture six are the ones based in reality and the rest is just the imagination of an evolutionist?
No, they are based on observations of living organisms. As noted in Message 7:
quote:
One of the best understood evolutionary pathways is the eye. The website for Encyclopedia Britannica has a very nice graphic showing various stages in the process, including an example of a currently living organism for each stage.
When we go to that site it lists some of the extant species with such developments. These are not the only species that exhibit these intermediate developments either.
So what mechanism is it that leads to new genetic information? ...
What is "information"?
The mechanism that leads to new genetic traits/features/functions is mutation. Mutations add variety to the breeding population, and selection winnows out the variations that are not as beneficial to the organisms.
... natural selection is a mixing up and reducing of the genes, ...
No, natural selection does not "mix up" genes, it acts on the phenotype of individuals, and those that survive to breed more than the others in the population contribute more of their genes to the next generation.
... but I am not sure what it is that produces the new genetic information?
What is "information"?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 54 of 871 (689909)
02-06-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bolder-dash
02-05-2013 3:42 AM


Hi, Bolder-dash.
Bolder-dash writes:
So that's the first mutation that leads to an eye ? Ok fine,gets go with that. so then I just need a mutation which leads to a dimple or depression somewhere on my body and I will be able to feel that sunlight even more. Amazing.
It is a pretty fortuitous occurrence, isn't it? I mean, if the eye evolved, then there were at least two mutations: a mutation that causes light-sensitivity in skin cells, and then another mutation that causes a "dimple" in the same location as the light-sensitive skin cells. it has to have been this way because there are many animals out there with dimple-less eyespots, so eyespots must have evolved and existed for a long time prior to the occurrence of the "dimple."
Once you get that far (a dimple-and-eyespot arrangement), I think most of the rest of it follows fairly easily through a process of subtle mutation and selection, but I do personally struggle to grasp that particular piece of the story. It could very well be that proverbial lightning simply struck in the same place twice: two random mutations just happened to line up.
Still, the fact that very similar "optical dimples" apparently evolved independently two times makes me think there might be more to it than just pure happenstance. Perhaps the "dimpling" was originally a body-wide skin texturing, but it was disadvantageous, except where it improved vision, so later rounds of mutation and selection caused the signal to be localized only to the eyes. Or, perhaps something about eyespots makes them more prone to "dimpling" than regular skin.
I can't tell you right now which, if any, of those ideas is correct, but I don't think that's a significant problem for the Theory of Evolution, at all. Remember, there are really good reasons why we don't have all the answers: usually, when we lack an answer for something, it's because there isn't enough data to provide any answer at all.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-05-2013 3:42 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
broken180
Junior Member (Idle past 4065 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 07-31-2012


(2)
Message 55 of 871 (689911)
02-06-2013 11:14 AM


wow, who would have thought the term 'information' would be so troublesome. Having done a bit more research on it I now find I do not understand my own question!
You guys are arguing above my level, I will go back to helicopter mode

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Panda, posted 02-06-2013 11:24 AM broken180 has not replied
 Message 59 by Taq, posted 02-06-2013 3:43 PM broken180 has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 56 of 871 (689912)
02-06-2013 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by broken180
02-06-2013 11:14 AM


broken180 writes:
Having done a bit more research on it I now find I do not understand my own question!
And that shows that you now understand your own question better.
But don't let "not understanding" put you off.
"Not understanding" is simply the first step to "understanding".

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
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broken180
Junior Member (Idle past 4065 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 07-31-2012


(1)
Message 57 of 871 (689918)
02-06-2013 11:47 AM


Thanks Panda, that is kind of you to say

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 58 of 871 (689936)
02-06-2013 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by broken180
02-05-2013 1:51 PM


So in the picture in message six, I presume that picture one and picture six are the ones based in reality and the rest is just the imagination of an evolutionist?
What's that saying: "When you presume, you make a pres out of ..." --- wait, that doesn't work. You wouldn't like to edit your post so as to say "assume" instead, would you?
The stages are all there for us to look at. Sometimes we can see them all in the same group of animals. The standard example is molluscs, but we can also see this in jellyfish. In fact there are some jellyfish where the same species has a mix of different types of eyes, a few good ones and a lot of more primitive ones.
See for example V J Martin, Photoreceptors of cnidarians, Can. J. Zool. 80: 1703—1722 (2002)
Many cnidarians are sensitive to light, yet they bear no distinct ocelli. Lentz and Barnett (1965) observed ciliated sensory cells in the outer epithelium of hydra and suggested that these cells are photosensitive. The precursor of the photoreceptor cells in cnidarians was probably a photosensitive ciliated ectodermal cell, similar to those described in hydra . Such ciliated photosensory cells possess greater information capacity if they are grouped with nonciliated pigment cells to form a primitive distinct ocellus. The ocelli of L. octona illustrate this design, as they are composed of a simple patch of ciliated photosensory cells intermingled with pigment cells. The photosensory cells expanded their apical, light-receptive surfaces with microvilli, and their basal ends were drawn out to form axons. Such simple eyespots would be useful for informing an animal about the distribution of light and dark in the surroundings. Over time the light-sensitive patch invaginated to form a cup-shaped structure, and the plasma membrane covering the cilium of the photoreceptor cell evaginated to form villous processes, thus increasing the surface area for photon detection. The pigment cells also formed microvillous processes that interdigitated with the villous processes of the sensory cells, both processes filling the ocellar cup. This design is seen in P. penicillatus. Through the formation of a pigmented cup, spatial resolution was introduced, as the angle through which the individual photoreceptor cells received light was reduced. Spatial differentiation of the villous processes of the pigment cells and photoreceptor cells occurred, as is seen in B. principis. In some animals, such as C. radiatum, primitive lenses derived from villous extensions of pigment cells formed in the ocellar cups. Finally, the ocelli of cubomedusae represent the most highly evolved eyes in the Cnidaria. In these ocelli, the opening to the eye cup constricted and a spherical, graded-index lens formed in the center of curvature of the retina, producing a camera-type eye.
So unlike (for example) talking snakes, these gradations of vision are real things that we can look at and study.
So what mechanism is it that leads to new genetic information? I know that mutation leads to loss of information but can be beneficial, and natural selection is a mixing up and reducing of the genes, but I am not sure what it is that produces the new genetic information?
Well, I see you've already retracted this. But this problem is not just what you think it is, that creationist definitions of "information" are incoherent.
The big problem is when you write: "I know that mutation leads to loss of information". Now, let's leave aside the fact that you haven't quantified "information". The real problem you'd have to face even if you did is this: if it was true that a mutation changing a sequence of bases that went like "ATCGGCTATCA" to a sequence of bases that went like "ATCGCCTATCA" destroyed information, then it would necessarily be true that a mutation that changed "ATCGCCTATCA" to "ATCGGCTATCA" would create information. If one of them reduces information, then the exact opposite mutation must increase it. And this is going to be true no matter how you choose to count the information in the genome --- if you decide that a mutation from this to that destroys information, then a mutation from that to this must increase it. And this will be true whatever definition creationists come up with for information. There's no crafty definition you guys can come up with that will get round this problem.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 59 of 871 (689940)
02-06-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by broken180
02-06-2013 11:14 AM


wow, who would have thought the term 'information' would be so troublesome.
It doesn't need to be troublesome at all. You could simply define new information as a new DNA sequence produced by a mutation. It could be a very simple thing to measure and understand.
The problem in these discussions is that creationists define new information as "what evolution can not produce". Each creationist has different ideas of what evolution can not produce, so we get an almost endless string of vague definitions. Even worse, they usually have nothing at all to do with actual biology or genetics. In fact, creationists strain the definition of "new information" so severely that by the end of a discussion you come to the conclusion that evolution does not need to produce the creationist vision of "new information" in order for evolution to produce the biodiversity we see today.
"New information" is really just a placeholder for "I don't believe you" in creationist talk.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 60 of 871 (690026)
02-07-2013 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bolder-dash
02-05-2013 3:42 AM


... Next we need the dimple to be passed to the next generation. I have not yet heard of these skin dimples which get passed along like this, ...
As noted by others, dimpled skin could be a different mutation, and all you need is a mutation for a dimple occurring where you have skin sensitive to light to combine the two.
... It's still kind of hard imaging a dimpled chin focusing light. ...
Think of concentration rather than focus. Have you ever used a reflector to concentrate sunlight on your face for tanning?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-05-2013 3:42 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-08-2013 9:48 AM RAZD has replied

  
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