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Author Topic:   The Supreme Court of Canada stands by Quebec schools' religion course
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 1 of 17 (653024)
02-17-2012 1:19 PM


Hi! Newly registered guy here (I already read almost all the threads... so much time "wasted" but I learned A LOT! Thanks guys!).
AbE : I just realized that using a demon's name as username while being an atheist on this kind of forum could be tricky. I hope I'm not offending anyone as it's not my intention. I used this username for so long that I just didn't remember what it meant.
First of all, I want to apologize for my english, I'm a canadian-frenchy (like slevesque I guess, btw I hate your Habs avatar )!
Hey I only wanted to share a court decision that is making the news today in the province :
The Supreme Court of Canada stands by Quebec schools' religion course
Strangely this time a "fundamentalist" family wasn't trying to get religion in the schools. Instead, they were trying to force references to other religions than theirs out!
It's only my opinion but I think that that Ethics and Religious Culture course is a really good idea and I don't see any reason why some knowledge about people with different worldview could be bad in a world where you can litteraly knock at the door of someone at the other end of the earth.
Great decision!
What do you think?
Edited by Bliyaal, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 02-17-2012 1:41 PM Bliyaal has not replied
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-17-2012 2:13 PM Bliyaal has replied
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 02-17-2012 2:42 PM Bliyaal has replied
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-17-2012 3:47 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 17 (653025)
02-17-2012 1:39 PM


Welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell. I think it is a great decision.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 17 (653026)
02-17-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bliyaal
02-17-2012 1:19 PM


Those Fundies gotta be careful. If the little kids learn that everything their pastor and parents have been telling them is bullshit, they might not grow up to be profitable mindless sheep.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 1:19 PM Bliyaal has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 17 (653027)
02-17-2012 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bliyaal
02-17-2012 1:19 PM


Welcome!
Great decision; it good to teach the controversy ;-)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 1:19 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
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Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 5 of 17 (653028)
02-17-2012 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
02-17-2012 2:13 PM


Thanks!
Hehe I didn't think about it that way but yes it's a good example of what happen when they're served their medecine of "teaching the controversy" even though it's done objectively, without any controversy, only to learn about other cultures.
We need to keep a link to that decision for the next time we see the "teach the controversy" argument.
Edited by Bliyaal, : Fixed a typo

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 6 of 17 (653030)
02-17-2012 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bliyaal
02-17-2012 1:19 PM


Bliyaal writes:
It's only my opinion but I think that that Ethics and Religious Culture course is a really good idea and I don't see any reason why some knowledge about people with different worldview could be bad in a world where you can litteraly knock at the door of someone at the other end of the earth.
Great decision!
What do you think?
Welcome Bliyaal. I spent 15 of the best years living in the Montreal suburbs and raised my kids there.
I agree that this course is something I'd want my kids to attend, and I wouldn't mind taking it myself. However, I think that this gives too much power to the state. Why should my kids be forced to take a course which I believe will give them a false set of beliefs or values. On the surface this appears to be an unbiased course on world religions. What if an atheist were to say that they didn't want their kids taking the course? I would think that if they didn't agree with the course that they shouldn't be forced to have their kids enrolled either.
IMHO it is the parents job to teach religion, values, ethics etc to the kids. If parents feel that the kids are being taught something that they don't agree with I would agree that it is best to have them take the course and then discuss it, however I don't believe that they should be forced into that position. It is the schools job to educate the kids and the teachers should be role models of ethical and moral behaviour that the majority of people of any faith or no faith would agree with.
I think that this sets an unfortunate precedent.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 1:19 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 3:15 PM GDR has replied
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 02-17-2012 4:48 PM GDR has replied
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 02-17-2012 11:50 PM GDR has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(2)
Message 7 of 17 (653032)
02-17-2012 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by GDR
02-17-2012 2:42 PM


Teaching that there's other religions in the world and getting an overview of their beliefs is forcing those beliefs on someone? How?!
Parents can't decide what schools are teaching to their kids based on what they agree or not, unless they send them to a 100% private school or homeschool them.
Following your logic, a parent suffering of color blindness could decide to exclude his kids from a biology class because he disagree that the blood is red...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 02-17-2012 2:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2012 3:26 PM Bliyaal has replied
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2012 3:28 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 8 of 17 (653035)
02-17-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Bliyaal
02-17-2012 3:15 PM


I've got to agree. Atheists generally aren't against kids learning ABOUT religion. Religion taught as fact is another matter, but if this course in't about that then it's probably good.
In their own lights the fundamentalists probably are right to be concerned about the course. Knowledge is their enemy - and knowledge of other religions is especially dangerous. They don't want their kids to know anything that might lead to them questioning fundamentalist Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 3:15 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 3:34 PM PaulK has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 9 of 17 (653036)
02-17-2012 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Bliyaal
02-17-2012 3:15 PM


Frankly I think I would have to know more about the course to have a firm opinion. What you say makes sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 3:15 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 3:35 PM GDR has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 10 of 17 (653038)
02-17-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
02-17-2012 3:26 PM


From the Education department website
Ethics
Your child will learn to:
  • carefully reflect on aspects of certain social realities and subjects such as justice, happiness, laws and rules
  • ask himself or herself questions such as: What value should guide people in their relationships in society? What are the characteristics of acceptable and unacceptable behavior? How can these behaviours be recognized?
    It will therefore become easier for your child to organize his/her ideas and express them with respect and conviction.
Religious culture
Your child will:
  • learn about the important place of Catholicism and Protestantism in Qubec's religious heritage
  • discover the contributions of Judaism and Native spiritualities of this religious heritage
  • learn about elements of other religious traditions more recently found in Qubec society

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Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 11 of 17 (653039)
02-17-2012 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
02-17-2012 3:28 PM


Didn't see you replying but my previous post can apply!

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 17 (653041)
02-17-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bliyaal
02-17-2012 1:19 PM


Strangely this time a "fundamentalist" family wasn't trying to get religion in the schools. Instead, they were trying to force references to other religions than theirs out!
Not exactly... they were trying to get their children exempted from the course. They weren't trying to get the course removed.
But whatever, I get you were adding some flavor
It's only my opinion but I think that that Ethics and Religious Culture course is a really good idea and I don't see any reason why some knowledge about people with different worldview could be bad in a world where you can litteraly knock at the door of someone at the other end of the earth.
Great decision!
What do you think?
Do they not have Catholic schools in Canada!?
I don't know how public education works in Canada, but down here, parents don't decide on their childrens' education, the state does. You can't just decide to not have your kid get taught math, or whatever.
Too, maybe the parents could've had a little more faith in their religion. If this course is such a threat, what does that say about their beliefs...
In the end tho, I don't really see why they would force the kids into the course. What purpose does that serve? You can expose them to that cultural variety, but you can't make them pay attention. You know, horses-n-water and such. I guess its more about the principle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bliyaal, posted 02-17-2012 1:19 PM Bliyaal has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 13 of 17 (653048)
02-17-2012 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by GDR
02-17-2012 2:42 PM


However, I think that this gives too much power to the state.
The state already has the power to teach facts about the planet and its people.
Why should my kids be forced to take a course which I believe will give them a false set of beliefs or values.
But why would you believe that the course will give them a false set of beliefs? The Religious Education would be 'Catholics believe x about y. Muslims believe z about y. Hindus believe a about y. In fact, Hindus have a ritual surrounding y and the Sikhs wear jewelery that symbolises y.'
That is a true set of beliefs, so there would no compunction to believe any of the beliefs mention - just a compunction to believe that people have those beliefs, which is a compunction to the truth.
On the surface this appears to be an unbiased course on world religions.
Do you have any reason to believe that this this appearance is only surface deep?
What if an atheist were to say that they didn't want their kids taking the course?
I'd say, 'suck it up'. You don't get the option of not going to classes that teach facts about the world: It's compulsory education. It may be judged far too important for harmonious cross-cultural interactions for the populace to remain ignorant of other people's religions.
Imagine a nation where people were ignorant of other religions! I'm sure their misunderstandings would lead to xenophobia, prejudice and the like. That nation would be parochial, probably unable to even find the Middle East on a map, and would find themselves laughed at behind their metaphorical back. Imagine that!
I have no idea why an atheist would object, to be honest.
IMHO it is the parents job to teach religion, values, ethics etc to the kids
It's the parent's job to teach values and their religous views, ethics etc to their kids. But the state has an interest in educating those children in the basic facts about other religions.
As an example: It is the parent's job to say 'contraception is bad, sex is for procreation only, save it for marriage.', but it might be in the State's interest to tell all of its citizens: 'Contraception exists, here is how to use it, here are some associated risks regarding sex and various other important facts you'll need if you are going to regarded by society as being able to give 'informed consent' over anything to do with sex.'
Here in the UK, Religious Education is compulsory. In 'Schools of a religious character' aka Faith Schools, RE is all too often an indoctrination into one particular religion class (how often is difficult to tell, they are not subject to any governmental oversight so they can do as they please). However, in non-Faith Schools, it is mostly an unbiased account of the facts.
I say mostly, both of my RE teachers were Christians. One, an ultra-liberal CofE. The other I never found out the specific denomination, but it was a bit more 'doom and gloom' than the other. So there was some bias in the teachings. The exact things that are taught are biased by the neighbourhood you live, by design. So because we were in a mostly Christian neighbourhood, most of the RE was about Christianity - the different views of different UK based denominations. But there was quite a number of Muslims in the school, so we did quite a bit about that too. I remember eating bitter herbs (horseradish) when we learned about Judaism.
So here, its really mostly education about the local religions along with some information on major world religions. And it seems odd to object to teaching facts about real things. I guess if some of the religious get offended by the existence of atheists, teaching about their points of view would be anathema!
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 14 of 17 (653060)
02-17-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
02-17-2012 3:47 PM


Not exactly... they were trying to get their children exempted from the course. They weren't trying to get the course removed.
I agree but if the Supreme Court had ruled that the course violated the freedom of religion, included in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms under 2.a, the government of Quebec would probably had to remove and/or change it.
Do they not have Catholic schools in Canada!?
Probably, I'm not sure about it.
I don't know how public education works in Canada, but down here, parents don't decide on their childrens' education, the state does. You can't just decide to not have your kid get taught math, or whatever.
Same here, education is under the responsability of the provinces.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(6)
Message 15 of 17 (653064)
02-17-2012 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
02-17-2012 4:48 PM


Modulous writes:
So here, its really mostly education about the local religions along with some information on major world religions. And it seems odd to object to teaching facts about real things. I guess if some of the religious get offended by the existence of atheists, teaching about their points of view would be anathema!
I guess at this point I'm trying to find a way to backtrack gracefully.
I see the role of the schools to educate the kids and the job of the parents to raise them in the direction that the parents believe they should go, and I thought at first glance that this course crossed that line but on closer look it appears that it doesn't.
At least I gave you guys a target to shoot at.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

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