Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality.

Sorry. I meant "participating in this thread."So you and monkey boy would appear to be TWO christians who have no problems with homosexuality. I am curious why you two do not see this activity as being sinful? From the quotes provided (leviticus, romans) it would appear the bible is quite clear on its stance regarding homosexuality. If you have already explained this in previous posts, just point me at the links. I have to challenge that statement. The Catholic church as a whole certainly does not advocate homosexuality, nor do most protestant sects that I am familiar with.

An alternative heterosexual view:Torah does not explicitly declare a homosexual to be an abomination. It declares that an act of homosexual sex is an abomination. Therefore, one may assume that a homosexual male or female who does not engage in homosexual sex is not condemned by Torah simply for being born wired for homosexuality. In this regard, the Mosaic Law and Roman Catholicism seem to agree.Peace. Ab.

The basic reason is that the two locations you mention, the various Genesis, Paulian Texts and Leviticus, IMHO, either are being misinterpreted or are simply using selective potions while ignoring the whole of passages.I have addressed some of the specifics in this thread in Message 5, Message 9, Message 46 and Message 55.Leviticus is a clasic example of selective attribution. While many if not most of the Thou Shalt Nots in Leviticus are either ignored or openly refuted, Homophobics tend to latch on to those sections that might support their position. If they wish to use Leviticus as their authority, then I believe they must also accept the other proscriptions contained there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hee hee, but presuming the "Mr." in your username is accurate, sorry.I was going to add, but it seemed overkill, that hygene would seem to me to be a relative issue - if everyone has the same amount of stink, I doubt anyone would notice.Obviously people have been having sex much longer than they've been using soap, so clearly they get past the hygene issue, somehow.

jar, I've been following your posts on this and other topics and I seldom see anything I disagree with. Often, I don't speak up myself because you've already said what I wanted to say. In many cases I think you've said it better than I could or would have.I wouldn't point this out except that you keep making the same mistake and I thought you might want to know: the adjective form of 'Paul' is 'Pauline', not 'Paulian'. It's a minor point but this sort of error bothers me when it's repeated several times.Please excuse the interruption.

Jar,Cool. Thanks for the links!

You'd think an old St. Paul's grad would know better. But then I'm old so please forgive me. It comes from trying to read through a Dark Beer Glass.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that is a good point to raise as this certainly seems to be critical to the question if same-sex preference is hard wired, why would god make that sinful.(I don't believe preference for the same-sex (only) is genetically hardwired (discussed here in Is homosexuality a natural response to large populations; I think environment plays the biggest role).Of course the response would be that the issue of whether homosexual predilictions are genetic is irrelevant; the homosexual act is still immoral much like adultry is immoral despite an individual's genetic predisposition to want sex.Ultimately, one isn't condemned for 'being' homosexual, only for participating in homosexual acts; of course this is part and parcel of Pecos's argument that even some heterosexual acts are sinful.

In the months I have been on the EVC Forum I have watched what is doubtless a clear reflection of the division in general society as pertains to Homosexuals and the choosing of sides. Why is this such a threat to people?If, and I EMPHASIZE IF, sexual relationships are being performed by people who are old enough to bear the emotional tug of war that occurs between couples why is it any of our BLOODY business? Are people who despise homosexuals for whatever reason so without a life of their own that it should matter that ANY CONSENSUAL SEX between people outside of themselves and their significant other should occupy any portion of their lives?For crying out loud it is only sex not something IMPOrTANT like say the Stanley Cup Playoffs. Lighten up and leave other peoples sex lives alone.

Sidelined,We're discussing, as the topic indicates, homosexuality and the bible, and how/why that is relevant to morality. Of course you are going to see a lot of conclusions and positions here you do not agree with.What people do consentually is no concern of mine, but then I'm an existentialist and I find the definition of morality both subjective and arbitrary; however, I am curious to know why homosexuality is perceived as immoral by some Christians and not others.From your response I gather you think that being gay or lesbian, or participating in gay/lesbian sex is not immoral regardless of religious connotations; but your response seems more like an emotional outburst than anything that helps to keep the discussion moving in one direction or the other.

The idea that homosexuality is immoral is emotional. There is no evidence whatever to back it up. There is only a set of books written thousands of years ago by barely civilized men. Sidelined was reacting to this stupidity by saying that people who are preoccupied with other people's sex lives need to learn to mind their own business. His post was not an emotional outburst so much as it was a reaction to emotional nonsense.

custard You may be right however I was more concerned with trying to wake people up to a state of realization that a persons sexual preference is not anyone business unless a person is either incapable of dealing emotionally or is not consenting to participate.You remind me that I did miss asking a question that I feel I need to ask in order to better understand. How is it that sexual orientation is so embedded in peoples minds as having anything to do with morals?

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Are Christians really THAT concerned about saving sinners? Or are they so insecure in their beliefs that they think everyone else's beliefs will rub off on them?Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?) seems to indicate the latter: good Christians can't live compatibly with sexual behavior they don't agree with, so blow up the city and kill everyone.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are still people in this world who flat-out deny that the Bible has taken a stance on homosexuality! Good Lord, well, okay, let's get on with it then:First of all you cannot compare the few heterosexual couples who cannot conceive naturally, to ALL homosexual couples who cannot naturally reproduce. The inability of gay couples to reproduce is just one indication of why God may disapprove of homosexuality.According to the bible (OT & NT), homosexuality is a SIN. Fornication is also a SIN. It is a biblical fact that homosexuality is specifically called an abomination in the OT, while (heterosexual) fornication is not. It would seem that God (if we assume God inspired the words written in the Bible) has drawn a distinction. I, as a Christian, however, do not.I am no more happy to see heterosexual couples sleeping together, living together, having children out of wedlock, etc., than I am to see two men walk down the street hand in hand.Let me share with all of you (so I do not come across as being judgmental or "preachy") the fact that I have been guilty of sexual immorality in my own life. I have seven children from FOUR different fathers, and two of them were born out of wedlock. I cannot express to you how detrimental this has been to my family, my children in particular. Had I done things the way God instructed us to do them, I would have saved myself and my babies alot of anguish.I still believe that God loves me. I still believe that Christ's life was "good" enough to cancel out my destructive and foolish ways. This is not to say that I believe God accepts or condones what I have done. The bible tells me differently. I am married now, so technically, I am not a "fornicator". However, I cannot forget that when the Samaritan woman was asked about her husband, she had to reply honestly that she did not have a husband. (She was working on her fifth marriage at this time.) So it begs the question, while I had "biblical grounds" to divorce my two previous husbands, does God acknowledge my third husband? Probably not. It hurts, but it is a fact that I must accept, if I am to apply some deductive reasoning here.However, many homosexuals do not wish to acknowledge that the God of the Bible condemns their sexual practices. If I hear, "since God made me this way how could He condemn me for being true to myself," one more time... (sigh) God made us all, and we are all prone to sinful behavior in one aspect or another. Many of us are tempted to lie, cheat, covet, steal, etc., but you rarely hear a thief or a liar justify his actions by inferring that God "made him/her that way".I (along with my children) am a byproduct of the permissiveness in our culture. I was raised in a secular environment, and as long as you didn't sleep around too much, and you were monogamous with your partner, our society didn't necessarily frown upon pre-marital sex. The same is happening with homosexuality. In some circles, it is even considered "trendy" to be gay, particularly among teen-age girls, here in my home state.Many Christians are concerned about the impact the normalization of homosexuality will have on our society, just as they were a few decades ago when it became increasingly socially acceptable to have sex outside of marriage. It is wrong to dismiss those people as being "homophobic", and I for one am quite sick of it.I realize that by sharing this information about myself, I leave myself open to a number of personal attacks by those who oppose my views, but I hope they will refrain from doing so. To often, the messenger ends up with a bullet wound in these kind of debates-Backtalk

That is a true statement I suppose.Here are two other true statements that would have had the same positive impact that don't require God:1-If you went to a public school any time after 1975, had you adhered to what you were taught about birth control you would have avoided this situation.2-Had you used common sense, you would have avoided this situation.How do I know these statements are true? Because I have NEVER been married and I have NEVER had a child out of wedlock. It's called personal responsibility and has little or nothing to do with God.So biblical morality really has nothing to do with your personal situation does it? You made your own choices and that has nothing to do with the bible being right or wrong about homosexuality or fornication.And I do find your statement preachy and judgemental. The fact that you try to exonerate your judgemental position by saying

quote:

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It would seem that God has drawn a distinction. I, as a Christian, however, do not.

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is the EXACT same excuse used by these christians : Attention Required! | Cloudflare.They are adamant that THEY don't hate homosexuals, GOD hates homosexuals.This message has been edited by custard, 05-28-2004 08:56 PM