The only reason they(Precious Metals) do have value is people are willing to trade them for dollars. They are as much of a fiat currency as any other. What other function do those metals have outside of trading for currency? If silver was only sold for its use in photographic film, what would its price be? If gold were only traded for its use in products, what would its price be?
Price=Value. The question is not what the price would be in dollars. The question is what the price/value would be relative to any/all currencies and/or other commodities such as a barrel of oil.
In fact, stocks have more intrinsic value than gold or silver. Business still produce things, but gold and silver do not. What does a gold bar do for you? Does it mow your lawn? Does it make cars? Is it used to build houses? What does it do, other than sit there?
For 5000 years, that gold bar has held its value, unlike a hunk of Lead or a Rock (aside from Diamonds)
Look, all that I can do is to show you some of the analysts that I listen to. They have been traders in the commodities markets for many years and though it is true that many of them have a vested financial interest in defending commodities, they are not any more shyster than is a stockbroker or advisor. Ringo insists that I put this explanation into my own words, and though I am trying and learning more every day, I have 1/100th of the knowledge that these analysts have. Judge for yourselves. Each one of us has investments of some sort. Most of us listen to our advisors regarding stocks because stocks have enjoyed a decade-long Bull Run and have made us a fair amount of money. My question to you guys is this: Do you really understand the relationship between US Dollars, other foreign currencies and commodities, derivatives and "paper money....including futures, short squeezes, and even the futures markets which contain "Paper Gold and Paper Silver"?
Just watch these guys and give me your intuitive perception over the degree of honesty, Bullshit, and whether they are slick cons or merely veteran traders who see the hypocrisy in the financial markets.
Will silver rigging ever end? I know that time is limited for many of you, but if you can see the bullshit that I can't, apart from the fact that these men earn their livlihood over the precious metals industry, kindly explain to me why what the banks do to the investors is legal and why the manipulation is simply a time-honored Wall Street tactic?
The smartest among them is Rob Kientz who sees the big picture behind all of this and offers a rational overview. He joins the other 3 a bit later in the podcast. (8-minute mark) if you are short on time and are willing to give it a fair listen, skip to the 8-minute mark and listen to Kientz.
Transcript writes:
you know what the price of gold has done and the price of silver has done since early 2001 i mean both have been among the best performing asset classes over this 20-year period so the best that they're able to do and and this is because of the enormous physical demand for gold coming from the eastern hemisphere and other central banks now there's been several central banks recently that have announced they bought a bunch of gold in the first quarter and during the second quarter this year and this is physical gold that has to be delivered to these, you know these countries central banks in their own countries not necessarily kept in London some of it's kept in London so um they're basically what you call a managed retreat and if you just look at it over a one year two year or a couple month period yeah it seems like it's never gonna end
but in terms of the big picture i mean gold and silver are in a multi-decade bull market and the only thing the manipulation and intervention is going to do is extend the time at which for which gold and silver will be in that bull market and i think that'll i think the bull market ends when we have an eventual reset and that'll reprice gold and silver probably not in dollars at that point chris what do you say to that so i agree with it if i may hold you for one second here is rob keynes he is logging in
rob great to have you here brother welcome on in and glad to have you talking some silver how are you today sir doing well thanks for having me on well it's a pleasure and uh we'll let you finish up in the bullpen there well uh chris why don't you take it away and share your comments on what dave said or anything else okay so yeah i agree with what dave said completely i will correct him in fomc minutes in 96 greenspan said "should the price of gold rise we will lease gold and increasing quantities well he also said that verbally in congress oh he oh i didn't catch that yeah there's a youtube video oh and and all the course or the statements in the fomc minutes in the 90s between him and uh another fomc FMC member i forgot his name he was terrible too chris so no, manipulation is never going to end uh ever since gold and silver have been money they've been manipulated i mean not electronically through paper but the baser currency the melted down coins put added copper and main new ones with the lower gold or silver content so there was always this manipulation uh so that's never going to change even when we get a reset they're going to find another way to try to do it uh but you can't get discouraged because while you can manipulate it in the short and medium term you can't in the long term like i mean look what dave said you know the bull market and precious minerals really began in 2001 and there's been periods of it being just pummeled to death like 2011 ...2012 recently
but if you look at the long-term chart it's just a steady rise
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The thing that strikes me about the transcript is that he says that the price of gold and silver is rising (a “bull market”) and the “manipulation” will continue the rise.
So the “reset” will be a fall in the price (the end of the bull markets).
That really doesn’t support your idea that the price is being kept artificially low.
The thing that strikes me about the transcript is that he says that the price of gold and silver is rising (a “bull market”) and the “manipulation” will continue the rise.
So the “reset” will be a fall in the price (the end of the bull markets).
That really doesn’t support your idea that the price is being kept artificially low.
The price has been kept stable. Low and High are relative terms. It seems to be a fact that the price of both Gold and Silver has been manipulatedmanaged and not allowed to let its value be determined by a free market. By being managed, the price has increased slowly and steadily over the past 80 years or so.
The reset, as I understand the concept, only means that the dollar will no longer be the standard by which stocks, commodities, even properties, and bank accounts are measured. The reset will involve a transfer of control from one hemisphere to the other. The Bull market of which the commentators speak is the slow and steady (managed) rise in the metals price relative to the dollar. When the managed Bull markets end, they will not be replaced by bear markets. They will be replaced by free-market speculation which no bank or government will be able to control (unless they again confiscate the metals and prohibit free trade.)
Edited by Phat, : spelling
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
One thing I noticed with the history curriculum that was taught to my kids, is that there has been an increasing focus on late 19th and 20th century history.
My take on the reason for this ? I think it's because there is so much more access to audio visual material to study - and the thinking goes that kids learn better that way.
As in it's easier to just show them the film clips and recordings instead of creating presentations based on actual documentation? For example, I've been watching TimeGhost's week-by-week ("in real time") reports on The Great War (series was started in 2014) and WWII (last Saturday was 31 July 1942). While they do have film clips to include, they also put in a lot of work on animated maps that show troop positions and movement along with how the fronts were moving. For 07 Dec 1941, they also created 5 or 6 hours of special minute-by-minute coverage for Pearl Harbor.
Another channel has started a week-by-week series on the Franco-Prussian War, a surprisingly important war that nobody knows (at least not in the USA) but which changed European politics and history and not only affected the end of WWI but also helped lead to WWII. I'm 69 years old and I only learned about it from an OLLI lecture right before the pandemic hit. The fall of the French Second Empire, Prussian occupation of Versailles watching Paris tear itself apart in a civil war ("Week of Blood") that led to the Second Republic which Prussia forced to pay war reparations (as well as losing territory -- eg, Elsaß-Lothringen AKA Alsace-Lorraine which the Germans had lost in 1640), plus the announcement at Versailles of the founding of the German Empire (the Second Reich). That motivated France to impose such harshly punitive actions after WWI, basically giving Germans a taste of their own medicine -- the destruction of the German Empire, taking territory away from Germany (not only taking Alsace-Lorraine back, but also creating new countries out of German lands -- I think that part of Hitler's "gathering in of the Germans" was to take that land back), war reparations which led to French occupation of German industry when payments (which led to the German gov't to call for a general strike, which led to hyperinflation when they had to pay out unemployment without any tax revenues).
(And, of course, in the case of England, reducing the focus on the horrors wrought by our imperialistic past).
Like the British concentration camps in South Africa c. 1900 where tens of thousands of women and children died from malnutrition and disease? And of course there was also how the UK and France rewrote the maps of Europe and the Middle East which ended up causing futures wars and hostilities into the present (eg, Saddam Hussein's excuse to invade Kuwait was that it was actually Iraqi, Balkan nationalities all lumped together into Yugoslavia (a Yugoslavian friend remembered armed raids against her town in the early 60's), three different groups hostile to each other lumped together into Iraq). Britain's contradictory promises to both Arabs and Zionist groups for support in the Great War contributing heavily to anti-Israel sentiment in Arab countries. India and Pakistan.
And the USA's hands are no less dirty. Perhaps made even worse by how drastically US foreign policy can change every four years, hampering any kind of long-term planning or commitments which has given us a bad reputation for not carrying through. Eg, Trump (and here I'm invoking the British meaning of his name).
Banks like stability. Highly volatile assets are more the province of traders.
quote:The reset, as I understand the concept, only means that the dollar will no longer be the standard by which stocks, commodities, even properties, and bank accounts are measured.
It might not be the International standard for pricing gold or oil in the future. But it is certainly going to be the standard for ordinary US bank accounts - just like ordinary bank accounts in most countries use the local currency. Likewise properties in the US would continue to be mostly priced in dollars just as properties in other countries are mostly priced in local currency.
quote:The Bull market of which the commentators speak is the slow and steady (managed) rise in the metals price relative to the dollar. When the managed Bull markets end, they will not be replaced by bear markets. They will be replaced by free-market speculation which no bank or government will be able to control
Nevertheless the end of the bull market necessarily involves a fall in prices. I never suggested that a bear market would follow.
But none of this suggests that metals are good markets for ordinary investors. Quite the opposite, really.
Another point - this doesn’t make much sense to me:
manipulation is never going to end uh ever since gold and silver have been money they've been manipulated i mean not electronically through paper but the baser currency the melted down coins put added copper and main new ones with the lower gold or silver content
Debasing the coinage was a common trick, but that isn’t really manipulating metal prices. It’s just decreasing the metal value of the coins to below their face value. I’d say it comes in somewhere between minting more coins in a fiat currency and doing the same in a gold standard currency - when the bank doesn’t have enough gold. (Worse than the former, maybe not quite so bad as the latter).
The metal prices don’t really change - and by my understanding old coins (not debased) would often retain their value.
Yeah, our history is disgusting in so many ways. I hate it that we still have so many people who think it's so uplifting to sing Rule Britannia. How I've grown to loathe that song.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
On our Netflix is a series called "Explained", which releases a new episode each week (I still cannot make myself watch the episode on cricket).
Last Friday was an episode on flags which included a Jamaican official talking about that song and a coat of arms (not the current Jamaican one). The song proclaims that Britain shall never be slaves and here her people had been brought there as slaves. And that coat of arms shows a white warrior subjugating a dark-skinned man.
Still, it's good music. Just hum instead of saying the words.
For 5000 years, that gold bar has held its value, unlike a hunk of Lead or a Rock (aside from Diamonds)
The price of gold is determined by supply/demand. It will fluctuate in the short term but rise in the long term because the world supply is rising more slowly than the demand created by the increasing number of persons in the world. The world produces about 2.79 ounces of gold each year for each person by which the world population increases. Since on average a person will consume more than 2.79 ounces of gold over their lifetime, gold will be in increasingly short supply over the long term and so the price will continue to increase.
Just like gold and all commodities, lead and rock also have fluctuating values determined by supply/demand. Diamonds are not the only rocks with value. There are a wide variety of gems, plus gravel, fill, etc., and all have fluctuating values according to supply/demand, just like gold. Gravel's around $40/ton around here.
Because the supply of gold is decreasing per person, it is unsuitable as the base of value for a currency.
Look, all that I can do is to show you some of the analysts that I listen to.
Instead of posting links to read or watch please explain your thoughts in your own words.
Ringo insists that I put this explanation into my own words,...
My guess is that most agree.
...I have 1/100th of the knowledge that these analysts have.
Exactly, too little to recognize when you're being sold a line of malarkey.
Most of us listen to our advisors regarding stocks because stocks have enjoyed a decade-long Bull Run and have made us a fair amount of money.
During a bull market it is the very dumb analyst who manages to not make money. There's a book from the 1970's titled If They're So Smart, How Come You're Not Rich. Stock-market-unsavvy individuals should not be investing in the stock market on the basis of analysts' advice because their job it is to make money for their employers (i.e., churn your account while being careful not to be too obvious about it) and not for their clients who can always be replaced.
In other words, if you make money during a bull market, it is not due to the brilliance of your stock advisor.
Years ago I did all my own stock picking and dumping decisions, and after maybe a decade I'd done slightly worse than the stock market. I gave it up in disgust, and then the final version of the portfolio sat untouched for the next decade. When I finally looked at it again to do something else with the money I discovered that buying and holding (in essence what I'd done by ignoring it) had worked great. Do your research, buy quality stocks, then hold onto them through thick and thin (or ignore them, it's easier to sleep that way).
Just watch these guys...
No. You explain it.
Transcript writes:
etc...
PHAT, GEEZ, YOUR OWN WORDS!!!! USE YOUR WORDS!!!! YOU'RE A YOUTUBE SUCKER!!!!
You're contradicting yourself. You begin your paragraph claiming the price of gold has been kept stable:
The price has been kept stable.
And you end your paragraph by claiming it has been steadily rising:
By being managed, the price has increased slowly and steadily over the past 80 years or so.
It seems to be a fact that the price of both Gold and Silver has been manipulated managed and not allowed to let its value be determined by a free market.
What is your evidence that gold and silver prices are being manipulated/managed? Read The Pit: A Story of Chicago about an investor who tried to corner the market in wheat, a commodity. It makes the way commodities markets work so clear that you might come to understand you're speaking garbage.
If you're so sure the markets in gold and silver are being manipulated, explain how they're doing it and how it became known that they're doing it.
I watched your recommended documentary and was edified, impressed, and grateful that you shared it with me. Human nature is indeed a primary impetus for the cycles of boom and bust that have occurred since ever. Hyman Minsky was an individual whom I knew little about until your video spurred me on to study his theories in detail.
So how do Bubbles relate to the current economic global situation?
In my opinion, the US Dollar is in a bubble and willo eventually pop, taking a lot of related investments down with its fall correction.
In my opinion, Gold and Silver will themselves provide a counter-cyclical and temporary refuge for investors seeking a safe haven. After watching your video and the educated opinions of those involved in making it, I now conclude that my best strategy will be to ride out the bubble that will form in the commodities after the dollar correction, being wise to sell when everybody wants to buy-in.
It is said that one cannot time "the market" or any market, but I think that it's safe to estimate that one must be detached from emotions, greed, and desperation. So the silver people (many many sources) say that silver will easily double and may fo on to increase up to ten times its normal (aka current) value. I likely will avoid exuberant greed and optimism and sell it only when it doubles and not in the mad rush that will follow. After all, ringo is right.
Worship only Jesus...not Gold, Silver, or Human emotion-driven speculations and plans.
Food is always more valuable than precious metals.
Do as Jesus said and keep the people in mind before profits
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
This is correct, in my opinion. Its that everything else changes, corrects, and bubbles get popped. The metals are a stable place to park your investments for a brief season after the dollar correction until the metals themselves will begin to form a bubble. It will be wise to know when to get out before that bubble also pops and leaves you as flat as you were before.
Peter Schiff seems to me to have a grasp of reality and is not a con. Perhaps his Dad was less brilliant than he is.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
The price has been kept stable relative to the US dollar. As inflation has whittled at the dollar's historic purchasing power, the metals rise.
As I said before, by being managed, the price has increased slowly and steadily over the past 80 years or so. This is relative to inflation over the years.
A free market would destroy this stability and the government and banks couldn't stop it. Rampant speculation borne out of desperation would drive the frenzy.
What I see happening is that at the point after the US Dollar correction, the precious metals themselves will ride a bubble. The time to switch back into what will likely be a new Fed digital currency will be early in this bubble rather than later (when it too pops)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
™ Version 4.2
(1)