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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1336 of 5179 (688279)
01-21-2013 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1331 by Panda
01-21-2013 10:20 AM


Re: The Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
I don't know, Panda, as I actually SAID it might be that nothing could have helped the victims in any of the situations I mentioned. I DID say that. You know, in so many words. HOWEVER, maybe armed resistance would have saved Poland, maybe it would even have deterred Hitler altogether. Again, I don't know. And neither do you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by Panda, posted 01-21-2013 10:20 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1338 by Panda, posted 01-21-2013 4:21 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1337 of 5179 (688280)
01-21-2013 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1327 by Tangle
01-21-2013 3:45 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
May I suggest that things may not stay so rosy with the EU, AND that if it weren't for America still being armed you wouldn't be so safe in your current disarmed state either. Just a thought. Sneer all you like but you might keep it in mind nevertheless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1327 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2013 3:45 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2013 4:34 PM Faith has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 1338 of 5179 (688281)
01-21-2013 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1336 by Faith
01-21-2013 4:09 PM


Re: The Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
Faith writes:
HOWEVER, maybe armed resistance would have saved Poland, maybe it would even have deterred Hitler altogether.
Polish citizens were armed.
Yes - there was armed resistance.
No - it didn't deter Hitler.
Faith writes:
Again, I don't know.
Yes - that is obvious.
Just in case you'd like to actually know: Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1336 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1340 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:28 PM Panda has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1339 of 5179 (688283)
01-21-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1328 by Straggler
01-21-2013 7:19 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Straggler, you haven't had to face the killing of children in a school like your son's. Now maybe you'd be silly enough to think disarming even more good people would make your son safer. But I'm talking in the context of attacks on school children, not the context of expected continued safety that you have in mind, and that's why I'm suggesting protecting schools with armed personnel of one sort or another. Ask the headmaster what he thinks after twenty children in the school half a mile away have been murdered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2013 7:19 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1345 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 4:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1347 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2013 7:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1351 by Percy, posted 01-21-2013 8:18 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1340 of 5179 (688284)
01-21-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1338 by Panda
01-21-2013 4:21 PM


Re: The Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
I'd heard otherwise Panda, that the Poles weren't armed. But fine, if you're right, then the ansswer is that nothing wojuld have helped them. That does happen. But I'd still rather be armed than not when the nation is invaded myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by Panda, posted 01-21-2013 4:21 PM Panda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1342 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 4:37 PM Faith has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1341 of 5179 (688285)
01-21-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1337 by Faith
01-21-2013 4:13 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Faith writes:
May I suggest that things may not stay so rosy with the EU, AND that if it weren't for America still being armed you wouldn't be so safe in your current disarmed state either. Just a thought. Sneer all you like but you might keep it in mind nevertheless.
Given our history, it's unlikely that things will stay rosy in the EU forever.
But it's no help to us whatsoever that American have guns in their homes. If we ever need America again, we'll need your drones, tanks, aircraft carriers, satellite surveillance, intelligence systems and finance.
I think you've forgotten what we're discussing.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1337 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1343 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:47 PM Tangle has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 1342 of 5179 (688286)
01-21-2013 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1340 by Faith
01-21-2013 4:28 PM


Re: The Silly Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
I'd heard otherwise Panda, that the Poles weren't armed. But fine, if you're right, then the ansswer is that nothing wojuld have helped them. That does happen. But I'd still rather be armed than not when the nation is invaded myself.
The Polish army had better arms that you can have in the US as a citizen. The invasion was over in about three weeks.
Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1340 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:49 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1348 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2013 7:29 PM RAZD has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1343 of 5179 (688287)
01-21-2013 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1341 by Tangle
01-21-2013 4:34 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
I meant that our having guns is possibly presently deterring some kinds of actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2013 4:34 PM Tangle has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1344 of 5179 (688288)
01-21-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1342 by RAZD
01-21-2013 4:37 PM


Re: The Silly Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
I meant I'd heard the Polish CITIZENS were not armed. Good grief. I know they had an army.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1342 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 4:37 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 1345 of 5179 (688289)
01-21-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by Faith
01-21-2013 4:26 PM


Re: The Irrational Un-American Mind
Straggler, you haven't had to face the killing of children in a school like your son's.
Dunblane massacre - Wikipedia
quote:
The Dunblane school massacre occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. The gunman, 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton (b. 10 May 1952), entered the school armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, it remains one of the deadliest criminal acts involving firearms in the history of the United Kingdom.
Public debate subsequent to these events centred on gun control laws, including public petitions calling for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official enquiry, the Cullen Report. In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom.
quote:
The Hungerford massacre occurred in Hungerford, Berkshire, England, on 19 August 1987. The gunman, 27-year-old Michael Robert Ryan (b. 18 May 1960), armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun, shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself. A report on this incident was commissioned by the Home Secretary, Douglas Hurd, from the Chief Constable of Thames Valley Police, Colin Smith. It remains, along with the 1996 Dunblane massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, one of the worst criminal atrocities involving firearms in British history.
The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988[2] was passed in the wake of the massacre, which banned the ownership of semi-automatic centre-fire rifles and restricted the use of shotguns with a capacity of more than three cartridges (in magazine plus the breech). Ryan's collection of weapons had been legally licensed, according to the Hungerford Report.
quote:
The Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 1996 Dunblane massacre, it is one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in British history.
Bird had been a licensed firearms holder and the incident sparked debate about further gun control in the United Kingdom; the previous Dunblane and Hungerford shootings had led to increased firearms controls.[16]
Looks to me like those gun control laws actually reduced the incidence of school and other shootings in England -- 3 in 25 years -- to well below the number seen in the US.
That's what the evidence shows.
Or is it because England is more civilized than the US?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1346 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:51 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 1355 by xongsmith, posted 01-21-2013 9:59 PM RAZD has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1346 of 5179 (688290)
01-21-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1345 by RAZD
01-21-2013 4:49 PM


Re: The Irrational Un-American Mind
Not so sure the gun control laws had anything to do with it myself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1345 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 4:49 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1349 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 7:35 PM Faith has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(6)
Message 1347 of 5179 (688303)
01-21-2013 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by Faith
01-21-2013 4:26 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Faith writes:
Straggler, you haven't had to face the killing of children in a school like your son's.
Ian and Nicole Hockley from Hampshire in England moved to Newtown two years ago. They lost their 6 year old son Dylan in the recent massacre.
quote:
His father Ian urged the US to address its gun control laws immediately.
Mr Hockley urged Washington to act on a number of different areas, saying: "The unthinkable has happened. All the shootings that have come before have indeed been terrible tragedies, but now it's sunk so low that very small children have now been the target of this. How could it possibly get worse? If they cannot address this now, it's as if they think they can never address it and they will give up and this will go on."
Link
Faith writes:
Now maybe you'd be silly enough to think disarming even more good people would make your son safer.
You have got to stop with this infantile insistence on labeling people as either goodies or baddies. The world doesn't work in the black and white terms that your position demands.
You may think I am misguided, stupid even. But in terms of never having murdered, tortured, raped, in terms of never having had any remote inclination to do any of these things, I surely qualify as a "good guy" right?
But imagine I lose my job. Imagine I get depressed. Imagine I start on a downward spiral of drink and depression. Imagine that my wife leaves me and takes the kids back to Argentina making it practically impossible for me to have any contact with them. Imagine my depression and drink and flawed nature continue to spiral out of control until one day half out of my mind I decide that my life is worthless and that the world at large has somehow betrayed me. Imagine that I decide to end it and to take with me or hurt as many other people as I can in the process.
Is this so far fetched? Is this the tale of an evil person or just a flawed human being who has lost the plot? Would you want this person to live in a society where deadly weapons are so prolific, so prevalent, so everyday and accepted that you can buy them at supermarket along with your bread and milk? Or would you want this person to live in a society where such devices in the hands of civilians are so rare that the mere sight of a gun in a populated public area would be considered a cause for evacuation and lock-down.
As long as human beings are flawed and human societies have problems - A proliferation of deadly weapons in society will only ever exacerbate the effects of our lowest moments and worst human tendencies.
Faith writes:
But I'm talking in the context of attacks on school children, not the context of expected continued safety that you have in mind, and that's why I'm suggesting protecting schools with armed personnel of one sort or another.
You are talking about a culture of perpetual fear. You are talking about a culture where you have to bolt yourself in and arm yourself up because there is the relentless but-never-specific threat of the "bad people" lurking around every corner. That isn't liberty Faith. That is a form of mental imprisonment!!
You want to talk about tyrannical oppressive regimes? If a population is so immersed in fear, so brainwashed by propaganda that ever more fences and and ever more guns are deemed the only response, then the oppressive regime has already done it's job.
Modern democratic societies are unlikely to be subjugated with tanks and missiles. If they are going to be subjugated it will be more subtle than that. It will be through fear and propaganda. The faceless enemy. The faceless threat. Because there is no need to physically nullify those who have already mentally subjugated themselves to the tyranny of perpetual fear.
Faith writes:
Ask the headmaster what he thinks after twenty children in the school half a mile away have been murdered.
I suspect that, much like the parents of Dylan Hockley, the headmaster would want to ensure that all weapons of the sort used in that terrible event are as far away from the children he cares for as is humanly possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1352 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 8:28 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 1348 of 5179 (688307)
01-21-2013 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1342 by RAZD
01-21-2013 4:37 PM


Re: The Silly Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
Fascinating. I had always been under the impression that the Poles were armed only with horse-riding-sword-wielding regiments, or something ridiculous like that.
Turns out they had an airforce, tanks, ships and submarines!!
But even despite this their equipment was so inferior and small in number as compared to that of the Germans that to this day people still think of them as effectively unarmed.
This should cause those who subscribe to "Red Dawn" reasoning (i.e. an armed civilian population is required in order to defend against national, home or foreign, military powers) to think again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1342 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 4:37 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1350 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2013 7:41 PM Straggler has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1349 of 5179 (688308)
01-21-2013 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1346 by Faith
01-21-2013 4:51 PM


Re: The Irrational Un-American Mind
Not so sure the gun control laws had anything to do with it myself.
Ah, so then it is because the English are much more civilized than Americans?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1346 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 4:51 PM Faith has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1350 of 5179 (688310)
01-21-2013 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1348 by Straggler
01-21-2013 7:29 PM


Re: The Silly Un-reasonable Gun-control gun phobic Fanatic Mind
One can also discuss how effective guns and arms were for the French in keeping the German army at bay.
Many Americans seem to be under the impression that the French just waved a white flag at the start and then sat around and drank wine or something.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1348 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2013 7:29 PM Straggler has not replied

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