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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't know, Panda, as I actually SAID it might be that nothing could have helped the victims in any of the situations I mentioned. I DID say that. You know, in so many words. HOWEVER, maybe armed resistance would have saved Poland, maybe it would even have deterred Hitler altogether. Again, I don't know. And neither do you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
May I suggest that things may not stay so rosy with the EU, AND that if it weren't for America still being armed you wouldn't be so safe in your current disarmed state either. Just a thought. Sneer all you like but you might keep it in mind nevertheless.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3713 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Faith writes:
Polish citizens were armed. HOWEVER, maybe armed resistance would have saved Poland, maybe it would even have deterred Hitler altogether.Yes - there was armed resistance. No - it didn't deter Hitler. Faith writes:
Yes - that is obvious. Again, I don't know. Just in case you'd like to actually know: Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Straggler, you haven't had to face the killing of children in a school like your son's. Now maybe you'd be silly enough to think disarming even more good people would make your son safer. But I'm talking in the context of attacks on school children, not the context of expected continued safety that you have in mind, and that's why I'm suggesting protecting schools with armed personnel of one sort or another. Ask the headmaster what he thinks after twenty children in the school half a mile away have been murdered.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'd heard otherwise Panda, that the Poles weren't armed. But fine, if you're right, then the ansswer is that nothing wojuld have helped them. That does happen. But I'd still rather be armed than not when the nation is invaded myself.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes:
May I suggest that things may not stay so rosy with the EU, AND that if it weren't for America still being armed you wouldn't be so safe in your current disarmed state either. Just a thought. Sneer all you like but you might keep it in mind nevertheless.
Given our history, it's unlikely that things will stay rosy in the EU forever. But it's no help to us whatsoever that American have guns in their homes. If we ever need America again, we'll need your drones, tanks, aircraft carriers, satellite surveillance, intelligence systems and finance. I think you've forgotten what we're discussing.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I'd heard otherwise Panda, that the Poles weren't armed. But fine, if you're right, then the ansswer is that nothing wojuld have helped them. That does happen. But I'd still rather be armed than not when the nation is invaded myself. The Polish army had better arms that you can have in the US as a citizen. The invasion was over in about three weeks. Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I meant that our having guns is possibly presently deterring some kinds of actions.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I meant I'd heard the Polish CITIZENS were not armed. Good grief. I know they had an army.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Straggler, you haven't had to face the killing of children in a school like your son's. Dunblane massacre - Wikipedia
quote: quote: quote: Looks to me like those gun control laws actually reduced the incidence of school and other shootings in England -- 3 in 25 years -- to well below the number seen in the US. That's what the evidence shows. Or is it because England is more civilized than the US? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Not so sure the gun control laws had anything to do with it myself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Faith writes: Straggler, you haven't had to face the killing of children in a school like your son's. Ian and Nicole Hockley from Hampshire in England moved to Newtown two years ago. They lost their 6 year old son Dylan in the recent massacre.
quote: Link Faith writes: Now maybe you'd be silly enough to think disarming even more good people would make your son safer. You have got to stop with this infantile insistence on labeling people as either goodies or baddies. The world doesn't work in the black and white terms that your position demands. You may think I am misguided, stupid even. But in terms of never having murdered, tortured, raped, in terms of never having had any remote inclination to do any of these things, I surely qualify as a "good guy" right? But imagine I lose my job. Imagine I get depressed. Imagine I start on a downward spiral of drink and depression. Imagine that my wife leaves me and takes the kids back to Argentina making it practically impossible for me to have any contact with them. Imagine my depression and drink and flawed nature continue to spiral out of control until one day half out of my mind I decide that my life is worthless and that the world at large has somehow betrayed me. Imagine that I decide to end it and to take with me or hurt as many other people as I can in the process. Is this so far fetched? Is this the tale of an evil person or just a flawed human being who has lost the plot? Would you want this person to live in a society where deadly weapons are so prolific, so prevalent, so everyday and accepted that you can buy them at supermarket along with your bread and milk? Or would you want this person to live in a society where such devices in the hands of civilians are so rare that the mere sight of a gun in a populated public area would be considered a cause for evacuation and lock-down. As long as human beings are flawed and human societies have problems - A proliferation of deadly weapons in society will only ever exacerbate the effects of our lowest moments and worst human tendencies.
Faith writes: But I'm talking in the context of attacks on school children, not the context of expected continued safety that you have in mind, and that's why I'm suggesting protecting schools with armed personnel of one sort or another. You are talking about a culture of perpetual fear. You are talking about a culture where you have to bolt yourself in and arm yourself up because there is the relentless but-never-specific threat of the "bad people" lurking around every corner. That isn't liberty Faith. That is a form of mental imprisonment!! You want to talk about tyrannical oppressive regimes? If a population is so immersed in fear, so brainwashed by propaganda that ever more fences and and ever more guns are deemed the only response, then the oppressive regime has already done it's job. Modern democratic societies are unlikely to be subjugated with tanks and missiles. If they are going to be subjugated it will be more subtle than that. It will be through fear and propaganda. The faceless enemy. The faceless threat. Because there is no need to physically nullify those who have already mentally subjugated themselves to the tyranny of perpetual fear.
Faith writes: Ask the headmaster what he thinks after twenty children in the school half a mile away have been murdered. I suspect that, much like the parents of Dylan Hockley, the headmaster would want to ensure that all weapons of the sort used in that terrible event are as far away from the children he cares for as is humanly possible.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Fascinating. I had always been under the impression that the Poles were armed only with horse-riding-sword-wielding regiments, or something ridiculous like that.
Turns out they had an airforce, tanks, ships and submarines!! But even despite this their equipment was so inferior and small in number as compared to that of the Germans that to this day people still think of them as effectively unarmed. This should cause those who subscribe to "Red Dawn" reasoning (i.e. an armed civilian population is required in order to defend against national, home or foreign, military powers) to think again.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Not so sure the gun control laws had anything to do with it myself. Ah, so then it is because the English are much more civilized than Americans? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One can also discuss how effective guns and arms were for the French in keeping the German army at bay.
Many Americans seem to be under the impression that the French just waved a white flag at the start and then sat around and drank wine or something. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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