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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 181 of 192 (627201)
08-01-2011 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by shadow71
07-31-2011 1:21 PM


Re: I need clear answers
Hi Taq. I have read and reread the "Materials and Methods" section and the "Results" section and I am not really going to discuss those sections with you.
In my opinion I would need at least a Bachelors degree in biolog to intelligently discuss those sectons and most likely a Doctorate.
When I get a chance later today I will walk through those sections for you and explain it in terms that a non-biologist would understand. It is vital to understand what the results were and how they got those results before you can even approach the discussion section. Conclusions with no connection to data are worthless.
I do believe I can talk about the Abstract and Discusion sections where the authors set forth what they believe the work they have done demonstrates.
I can also discuss what I interpret those opinions to mean for the theory of evolution.
I mean this with all due respect, but without a firm understanding of the science behind the conclusions you can not form a worthwhile opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by shadow71, posted 07-31-2011 1:21 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 182 of 192 (627211)
08-01-2011 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Wounded King
08-01-2011 10:08 AM


Re: About empathy
I quote from Mind Matters. introduction by David Dobbs.
Emory University primatologist Frans de Waal and University of Chicago neurobiologist Peggy Mason, review both the history of animal studies of empathy and a particularly thought-provoking recent mouse study from the McGill University lab of Jeffrey Mogil. As de Waal and Mason note, this clever study holds surprises about both the baseline and the limitations of empathy in these small, "simple" rodents. One can't

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Wounded King, posted 08-01-2011 10:08 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Admin, posted 08-01-2011 12:47 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 183 of 192 (627217)
08-01-2011 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by zi ko
08-01-2011 12:06 PM


Really No More Empathy
Hi Zi Ko,
This is what you said back in Message 176:
zi ko in Message 176 writes:
The rodents of Frans DE WAAL do they have theory of mind?
This is a rhetorical question asserting that Frans de Waal has been working with rodents and that he has used this research to develop a theory of the mind. When this was challenged by WK you provided an excerpt that refers to de Wall as a primatologist, which supports WK. The excerpt also says that de Wall reviewed animal studies and so performed no rodent research himself, further supporting WK. And there is no mention in the excerpt about a theory of the mind.
Zi Ko, please, no more discussion of empathy in this thread. No more discussion of a theory of the mind.
And please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 12:06 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 184 of 192 (627292)
08-01-2011 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Taq
08-01-2011 11:16 AM


Re: does information affecs genome?
So please describe this mechanism and how information is involved.
As I am not the apropriate person to describe such a mechanism
I quote from Shapiro:
"The second major aspect of evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering is that it generally takes place after an activating event which produces what McClintock called a 'genome shock' [160] . Activating events include loss of food [18] , infection and interspecific hybridization (Tables 3 and 4) "
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put space after ":" in subtitle to get rid of smilie.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 11:16 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 11:41 PM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 185 of 192 (627298)
08-01-2011 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by zi ko
08-01-2011 10:47 PM


Re: Re: does information affecs genome?
As I am not the apropriate person to describe such a mechanism
I quote from Shapiro:
"The second major aspect of evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering is that it generally takes place after an activating event which produces what McClintock called a 'genome shock' [160] . Activating events include loss of food [18] , infection and interspecific hybridization (Tables 3 and 4) "
This mechanism increases the random mutation rate.
FYI, I started a new thread on the Wright paper here.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put space after ":" in subtitle to get rid of smilie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 10:47 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by zi ko, posted 08-02-2011 8:58 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 186 of 192 (627373)
08-02-2011 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Taq
08-01-2011 11:41 PM


Re: Re: does information affecs genome?
This mechanism increases the random mutation rate.
It increases mutation rate; in nature nothing is random relating life. This randomness serves life percerverance.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 11:41 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Admin, posted 08-02-2011 9:28 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 187 of 192 (627377)
08-02-2011 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by zi ko
08-02-2011 8:58 AM


Re: Re: does information affecs genome?
Hi Zi Ko,
This type of contribution has been going on for too long:
it increases mutation rates.In nature nothing is random relating life. This "randomness" is serving life percerverance.
In this short little paragraph you have bad capitalization, bad punctuation, bad grammar, and bad spelling, plus you're making an unsupported assertion ("nothing is random relating life") and displaying illogic (the "randomness" that can't exist "relating life" somehow exists sufficiently to serve "life percerverance").
Please try again, this time with proper capitalization, punctuation, grammar and spelling (is there a browser today that doesn't include spell checking?), and with your assertion properly explained and supported, which probably requires that you explain how you're defining "randomness" since you put it in quotes, but keep in mind that you will not be permitted your own personal definition of randomness, nor of any other words.
And please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by zi ko, posted 08-02-2011 8:58 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 188 of 192 (628158)
08-07-2011 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Larni
08-01-2011 10:30 AM


Re: About empathy
The rodents of Frans DE WAAL do they have theory of mind?
No.
But they feel empathy.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Larni, posted 08-01-2011 10:30 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Admin, posted 08-07-2011 7:07 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 190 by Larni, posted 08-07-2011 7:37 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 189 of 192 (628167)
08-07-2011 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by zi ko
08-07-2011 5:07 AM


Re: About empathy
Me in Message 183:
Admin writes:
Zi Ko, please, no more discussion of empathy in this thread. No more discussion of a theory of the mind.
You in Message 188:
zi ko writes:
But they feel empathy.
Please no more talk about empathy or theories of the mind. The thread's topic is about whether information receives insufficient attention in evolutionary research.
No one commented on your Message 158 where you attempted to define information by quoting from Wikipedia, so I will comment now. You have confounded two different definitions of information. This is the definition of information from information theory:
Wikipedia writes:
Information in its most restricted technical sense is an ordered sequence of symbols that record or transmit a message. It can be recorded as signs, or conveyed as signals by waves. Information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system.
These three sentences that you quoted were immediately followed by this sentence:
Wikipedia writes:
As a concept, however, information has numerous meanings.
And you then continue on to quote one of those other meanings, the one for sensory input.
Please do not use two different definitions of information in the same thread. Please pick one or the other. If you choose information theory, then you must explain in what way information theory is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research. If you choose sensory input, then you must explain in what way sensory input is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by zi ko, posted 08-07-2011 5:07 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by zi ko, posted 08-08-2011 9:39 AM Admin has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 190 of 192 (628172)
08-07-2011 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by zi ko
08-07-2011 5:07 AM


Re: About empathy
I honestly can't be bothered any more.
Beleive what ever makes you happiest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by zi ko, posted 08-07-2011 5:07 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 191 of 192 (628275)
08-08-2011 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Admin
08-07-2011 7:07 AM


Re: definition of information.
Percy writes:
Please do not use two different definitions of information in the same thread. Please pick one or the other. If you choose information theory, then you must explain in what way information theory is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research. If you choose sensory input, then you must explain in what way sensory input is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research.
Sensory information can obviously be applied only to multicellular higher organisms with sensoral organs and neural system.
Information defined in a more technical sense we find in one cell organisms and that happens in Shapiro's work. But going from one cell to to higher organisms and from one type of information to the other, there is no difference as information remains basically the same, an ordered sequence of symbols.
It is not so much that information (both types) is not recieving adequate attention in research, as in accepting its significance in evolution for the known reasons; resistance to change and fear of giving arguments to IDs
Edited by Admin, : Fix message subtitle.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Admin, posted 08-07-2011 7:07 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Admin, posted 08-08-2011 9:59 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 192 of 192 (628278)
08-08-2011 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by zi ko
08-08-2011 9:39 AM


Re: definition of information.
Hi Zi Ko,
As moderator I am requesting that you focus on one definition of information. Pick which one you would like to focus on, either information theory or sensory input, and describe how science is failing to accept its significance in evolution.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by zi ko, posted 08-08-2011 9:39 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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