Did Jesus lie ?

Jesus spent a great deal of time with people, and talking to them. What is in the bible is only a small fraction of what he said, and what the disciples felt was important enough to write down.Jesus spoke in great length about heaven and hell, and where everyone was going. Personally for me, hell is a big hang up, and I have a hard time imagining a loving God sending people to hell, even if they don't understand Jesus, or for whatever reason soceity has made tham not want to accept Jesus.Fortunatly, we are to be Jesus like, and Jesus came to save, not judge, so I don't dwell on it to the point that it hurts my faith.

See my last post.John 3:16 says perish. To me perish is ceasing to exist. Even if they don't, living in hell might just as well be the same thing.I could be wrong about the perish thing though. Again, I don't want to judge, just be responsible for my own actions.

that's fine, but what makes you think in the context where it's being said that when Jesus is talking about death, he's talking about spiritual and not physical death ?Especially when in only the previous verse he makes it clear that he will reward people according to their works when he returns, in his kingdom !Are you suggesting that he says "When I return, some people here will not be spiritually perished yet" ?? - that doesn't even makes sense!On the other hand: "When I return, some people here will still be alive". That makes perfect sense, both to us and to his audience at the time.Edited by Legend, : grammar

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I think I was wrong for just blurting out that answer, saying that they are not dead. I was only partially right. It was the first thing that came to mind though, and still makes sense to me.However, the point of the argument was proving whether Jesus was a liar or not, and to prove that someone is a liar, which can be a very subjective argument, can be a tough thing to do. I am sure many people like Brian are swayed by all that they don't see regarding God, and are frustrated by the world, so they draw the conclusion that God just does not exist, and proceed to deny every word of the bible as false.That's fine, it takes a lot of faith to accept things in the bible. It doesn't take faith to read it, and carry that knowledge of what was said, and continue to seek for God in your own way. God will come to you when HE is ready. That's how it was for me. I completely understand where people are coming from, as I came from the same place.As far as Matthew 16:28 is concerned. It can mean a few different things. One must take all the gospels into consideration before taking a literal reading of that, and using as proof that Jesus was a liar.The NIV has two possible meanings in it's study bible:

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1. IT is a prediction of the transfiguration, which happened a week later (17:1) and demonstrated that Jesus will return in his fathers glory.
2. It refers to the Son of Man's authority and kingly reign in his post resurrection church. Some of his disciples will witness and even participate in-this as described in the book of acts. The context seems to favor the first view

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Geneva study bible:

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16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his {x} kingdom.

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(x) By his kingdom is understood the glory of his ascension, and what follows after that, Eph 4:10, or the preaching of the gospel, Mr 9:1.

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People's new testament:

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16:28 Shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man. The reference is not to his final coming to judge the world, but to his spiritual coming to establish his kingdom. This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Mark shows the meaning by substituting, Till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (Mr 9:1). The coming of the Son of man in his kingdom means, therefore, the same as the kingdom of God come with power. Compare Ac 1:8 Lu 24:49. The kingdom came with power on the day of Pentecost (Ac 2:1).

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Wesley's notes:

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16:28 And as an emblem of this, there are some here who shall live to see tho Messiah coming to set up his mediatorial kingdom, with great power and glory, by the increase of his Church, and the destruction of the temple, city, and polity of the Jews.

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Matthew Henry comment:

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16:24-28 A true disciple of Christ is one that does follow him in duty, and shall follow him to glory. He is one that walks in the same way Christ walked in, is led by his Spirit, and treads in his steps, whithersoever he goes. Let him deny himself. If self-denial be a hard lesson, it is no more than what our Master learned and practiced, to redeem us, and to teach us. Let him take up his cross. The cross is here put for every trouble that befalls us. We are apt to think we could bear another's cross better than our own; but that is best which is appointed us, and we ought to make the best of it. We must not by our rashness and folly pull crosses down upon our own heads, but must take them up when they are in our way. If any man will have the name and credit of a disciple, let him follow Christ in the work and duty of a disciple. If all worldly things are worthless when compared with the life of the body, how forcible the same argument with respect to the soul and its state of never-ending happiness or misery! Thousands lose their souls for the most trifling gain, or the most worthless indulgence, nay, often from mere sloth and negligence. Whatever is the object for which men forsake Christ, that is the price at which Satan buys their souls. Yet one soul is worth more than all the world. This is Christ's judgment upon the matter; he knew the price of souls, for he redeemed them; nor would he underrate the world, for he made it. The dying transgressor cannot purchase one hour's respite to seek mercy for his perishing soul. Let us then learn rightly to value our souls, and Christ as the only Savior of them.

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I like this last one. The day of Pentecost, and the power of the Holy Spirit falling on you is a powerful experience, and is what drives many people beyond just faith, myself included. Once you feel the Holy Spirit, the instance you feel it, things all make sense, as far as Jesus being a liar or not.I remember reading that verse a long time ago, and feeling the same way Brian feels now about it. But I remained with an open mind, because logically I knew there was no absolute meaning to it, unless I could start to understand God.So after having gone into this in great depth, I think we can say that verse does not prove that Jesus was a liar beyond a shadow of a doubt, and Brain will have to do better. This explanation is not apologetics, it is not back peddling, it is not a contortionists act, it is just truth explained, and it is what is. Jesus is the truth the way and the life. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, therefor it cannot lie. Brain, and you for that matter know deep in your heart that living in a world where people would not have to lie, would connect with your spirit in a way that nothing else can. That is our desire to worship and seek God, that God built into us. Just imagine. I believe heaven will be like that, and discussions like the one we are having will not take place, and we would waste our time fellowshipping together, instead.Anthony

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Exposing the lies, one truth at a time!

Can you tell me when you are finished making things up so I can reply to a post!Everytime I have a reply ready you change your mind.Are you happy with your latest message so I can reply to it?Brian.

why DO humans lie, anyway?

Many reasons.Guilt, shame, greed, tact, lots.Personally I don't tell lies, I don't see the point in it. But, I will say that being a 'non-liar' has brought its problems as often people really do not want to hear the truth.Brian.

lie#1I quoted respectable notes on the bible, and can provide the links if you are incapable of finding them yourself.
lie#2 riverrat wrote:

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I think I was wrong for just blurting out that answer, saying that they are not dead. I was only partially right. It was the first thing that came to mind though, and still makes sense to me.

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seems I didn't change my mind at all. not interested, unless you have some credentials, or start saying things that are non-insulting, and when you stop lying.It takes 7 truths to make up for a one lie, and lying is all part of your game. Yes I consider streching the truth, a lie.Part of having intellilgent discussions about all this, is being polite to each other. I don't see that it in you. It makes me not want to respect anythign you have to say on the subject. You might think your having fun, but really, you are just damaging your side of the story. It is plainly obvious to me, that somewhere along the line, you were hurt by religion, and your angry at God. Your response will obviously be, "there is no God, it's a fairy tale"
Too bad.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

I think it was also to explore other explanations. I -for one- don't think Jesus was a liar I just think he was mistaken, a bit too eager, if you like. I disagree here. I think that only the gospels and, in particular, the chapters where the passage comes from give the context of the verse in question. To use John's gospel, which was written decades later and speaks of different things, in order to interpret something said in Matthew is IMO the equivalent of using something that George W Bush said in order to explain Ronald Reagan's actions. If you start trying to understand the Bible within its context instead of God you may find some absolute meaning in it.As for the apologetics that you kindly quote, I reject them mainly for the reasons I explain in Message 25. Mathhew Henry offers some inspiring prose but nothing in way of an explanation of why Jesus is here not speaking of the physical existence of some of his contemporaries during the coming of his kingdom. Agreed. The possibility that he made an honest mistake is very much on the cards too!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

That's cool, and if there are other explanations, and we wish to seek them, that's a good thing, whether you believe in God or not.
I respect that, and feel the same way. I honestly wouldn't know enough to judge that. But what I can see is how the authors are inspired by the Holy Spirit, something I could not discern before feeling what I believe to be the Holy Spirit.
(us crazy's travel in packs) I have two thoughts on that.
On one hand, I don't think there could ever be an absolute meaning to it, because everytime you read it, God speaks to you in a different way. That is because our walks with God, and our spiritual growth, is never ending.On the other hand, you can examine why the series of books was put together in the first place, and deny that it wasn't the Holy Spirit that led man to assemble the bible.Either way, I have trouble finging absolute meaning for the bible existance, and it relys on faith, and subjectiveness. Not in my eyes. If HE made a mistake, then He wasn't the Son of Man. The authors could have made a mistake, or the interpretation could be inaccurate.

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If HE made a mistake, then He wasn't the Son of Man.

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I think you mean 'the Son of God'. 'Son of Man' was an idiom that Jesus used to indirectly refer to himself, a bit like 'yours truly' in modern English.And even if he was the the Son of God was he not also fully human? wasn't he entitled to make mistakes like you and I ?He got overzealous and believed that the kingdom of God would be established soon. He got it wrong, but his message of love, equality and tolerance still stands regardless, doesn't it ? Edited by Legend, : spelling mistake

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

It's not that I find it impossible for Jesus to have made a mistake. It's that it's illogical to think that if Jesus pocessed the knowledge of such an event, that he would at least know when.But that brings up something to mind. He couldn't have been talking about the rapture, because in acts he states that no-one will know the times except the father. He must have been talking about the transfiguration.

In Mark 9:1-9 the transfiguration takes place only six days after he tells them that some won't taste death until the kingdom of God comes. Why is he stating the obvious? Did he expect many people to die in those six days ? Jesus states that noone knows the exact day or hour of the coming of the kingdom (Mark 25:13). However he states that it will happen within his generation ( Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). He even expects the disciples to be alive to see it.Even when he says that noone knows the exact day or hour of the coming of the kingdom, he still urges the virgins to watch for it, suggesting that it will come within their lifetime.Jesus sets the timescale (this generation) but refuses to give an exact date.When finally on the cross he realises the kingdom of god ain't going to happen, he cries out in desperation "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46)Jesus made the mistake of believing his own hype, that's all.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I think you are completely wrong about that. God's Kingdom was revealed, and the heavens have been open since Jesus's death. The vail was torn, and you no longer have to go to the temple to experience God's love or glory. The temple is you now, it's up to you what you do with it. It is written this generation not his generation.This generation is the generation where we live under this convenant of God's love. I don't get that when I read that. If noone knows the times except the Father, then how can Jesus hint towards any time? That's not logical.We should live like He is coming tomorrow, or like He is coming a thousand years from now. That's His point.By you focusing on when the end will come, and not believing in God because the end hasn't come, then you are on the same level as all the end time preachers who want to scare their congregations into believing, because Jesus is coming.This is not what Jesus is all about.

when was God's Kingdom revealed ? And where in the Bible do you get that idea from ? yes, this generation is the generation of his audience (the disciples) and -by extension- his! that's not what Jesus says! He's addressing his disciples and he even tells them what to do when the desolation comes :
"When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place..." (Matt 24:15)He expects them to live through the tribulation :
"So likewise you, when you see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors." (Matt 24:33) Jesus doesn't know the exact time but he knows the time limit.
( Mar 13:30) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
( Mar 13:32) But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.He doesn't know the day and the hour but he does know it will be within this generation. Why is this illogical ?? Yes, that's what Jesus was all about. He expected the Kingdom of God to be established within his generation. Even Paul believed as much. Later generations of Christians, seeing that the kingdom ain't happening came up with the justification that kingdom = church and temple = you and all this meta-physical symbolic nonsense.If that's what you choose to believe that's fine. Just don't delude yourself that you're following Jesus's teachings.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."