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Author Topic:   Health care reform almost at the finish line... correction: it's finished
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 61 of 174 (550897)
03-19-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Huntard
03-19-2010 8:14 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
Yea, so you can see, like Rahvin said, this bill is just a bandage for an infectious wound. While it isa pretty good bandage, it doesn't stop private insurance companies from lining their pockets.
Weren't their better plans in place that Republicans shot down? I know ever since health care reform has been on the table, republicans have been against it no matter what. Is there a conservative here who can provide some insight as to what is so wrong with fixing our system? How can you justify what we pay for premiums? Premiums that only the top of the food chain can realistically afford.
{ABE}
Another thing, Huntard. I've been hearing one of the gripes about universal coverage like Canada and the UK is wait times. Well, sorry to say, but good luck having an affordable plan that also has ANY type of specialist covered. That's another kicker: what services are covered? Oh, you need physical therapy? Ooh, sorry, that's not covered on your plan. You have an ulcer, or you need to get your stomach checked for one? Sorry, not covered.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 8:14 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 8:49 AM hooah212002 has replied
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 62 of 174 (550898)
03-19-2010 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by hooah212002
03-19-2010 8:28 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
hooah212002 writes:
Another thing, Huntard. I've been hearing one of the gripes about universal coverage like Canada and the UK is wait times.
There are some. It's not really that bad though. There are only so many doctors or OC's, wait times are inevitable. People should realise this before complaining. Also, of course, the whiners are heard far more often then the people who are satisfied with the system, which is the vast majority (I've heard figures of more then 85% fro the U.K., I think ours are similar, but I don't have any figures ready.) If I had to choose between our system and what you describe to me, I know what I'm gonna choose. If that makes me a liberal nazi communist, so be it.
Well, sorry to say, but good luck having an affordable plan that also has ANY type of specialist covered.
Like a brain surgeon? Covered, in full.
That's another kicker: what services are covered? Oh, you need physical therapy? Ooh, sorry, that's not covered on your plan. You have an ulcer, or you need to get your stomach checked for one? Sorry, not covered.
Damn. So, even with ensurance, you can still run up one hell of a bill? Triple damn!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by hooah212002, posted 03-19-2010 8:28 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by hooah212002, posted 03-19-2010 9:28 AM Huntard has not replied
 Message 64 by Apothecus, posted 03-19-2010 9:50 AM Huntard has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 63 of 174 (550901)
03-19-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Huntard
03-19-2010 8:49 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
If that makes me a liberal nazi communist, so be it.
It does, apparently.
Like a brain surgeon? Covered, in full.
LMAO. I was being liberal with my examples. A brain surgeon? Pfft. Don't even think about it. Most policies have a lifetime benefit maximum. The lower, more affordable ones are between 1 and 5 million dollars. Then you have coverage amounts. IF you have a higher, more expensive plan that is gracious enough to cover a brain surgeon it will a) cost you an arm and a leg monthly b) most likely only cover 80% of the cost. That's how most all services are covered: rarely ever in full, mostly only 80 or 90% at best. But again, those are the more expensive plans.
Damn. So, even with ensurance, you can still run up one hell of a bill? Triple damn!
Oh yes, indeed. And if you don't pay? No more service. I have seen some surveys done that say a majority of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical bills even for people WITH insurance.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 8:49 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Wounded King, posted 03-19-2010 9:58 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 64 of 174 (550902)
03-19-2010 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Huntard
03-19-2010 8:49 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
Hey Huntard.
Your relation of your situation is resulting in a cacophony of facepalm slaps around the forum here...
So can you tell me, just for my own sanity's sake, how this type of plan can exist for everyone in your country? I realize most of it comes from the lack of bullshit waste we have here in the US, but what sort of tax rate do you pay? It's my understanding that Canada's income tax is much higher than that which we have here, but if anyone can tell me otherwise I'd like to know...

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 8:49 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 65 of 174 (550903)
03-19-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by hooah212002
03-19-2010 9:28 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
And let's not forget that some insurance companies will do whatever they can, frequently up to and including outright fraud, to prevent having to pay out. There is an opinion piece in today's NY Times about Assurant Health who's policy appears to be to revoke a client's insurance if possible as soon as they actually got sick.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by hooah212002, posted 03-19-2010 9:28 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 66 of 174 (550904)
03-19-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Apothecus
03-19-2010 9:50 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
The income tax I pay is 38% (the lowest you can pay here). That's probably a lot more than you guys pay over there. But bear in mind that I can still pay for my mortgage, electricity, water, food, lots of other stuff for fun, and so on. And still have money left each month for savings. And I don't have the largest income either, as the lowest tax scale should tell you. I hope that helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Apothecus, posted 03-19-2010 9:50 AM Apothecus has not replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 67 of 174 (550906)
03-19-2010 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by hooah212002
03-18-2010 11:28 PM


Re: Educated decisions on health reform
Do other states have this?
Yes, I've already pointed out 2 states in particular. However, there are strict income guidelines. I have also priced out private insurance, and making 45k/yr, I am in no mans land: I make too much for BadgerCare, too little for private.
MN has a couple options, besides self-funded private insurance. One is fully state-funded, referred to as MMA (Minnesota Medical Assistance) and is provided for individuals and families at no cost (there are paltry copays required for some things, including prescriptions). It is, of course, mostly based on income (max income ~ $1500/mo for ind. or $3000/mo for fam.) and/or level of mental/physical disability. The other option is called Minnesota Care, which offers coverage for higher incomes (up to ~ $4500/mo or so) and requires both premiums and copays. From what I hear, they're pretty well run, though like many other government run programs, are rife with folks who abuse the system. If I had a nickel for every mom who came to the pharmacy and picked up $700 of meds for free, and then hopped in her new Mustang while surfing on her iphone....
Sorry for your troubles, hooah. Hopefully this plan passes and you can make some lemonade out of it...for everyone else, all I can say is I'm sick of conservatives' opposition for no other reason than that their stubborn bias says they should oppose it. The GOP has not come to be the "Party of No" for no reason...
This is a different bill entirely from the 2009 plan -- tax cuts, credits and other concessions have been added in order to try and appease the GOP whiners, but it seems no amount of peace offerings will suffice. Indeed, it makes me ill...

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by hooah212002, posted 03-18-2010 11:28 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 68 of 174 (550907)
03-19-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by hooah212002
03-19-2010 12:17 AM


Re: My thoughts...
Agreed. But you and I both know universal health care is not going to come to the U.S. anytime soon, so at least this is something, right?
It's another system set forth with the interests of Big Business in mind. All they are doing is taking one problem and turning it into another problem, while still making sure profits don't go down.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 69 of 174 (550908)
03-19-2010 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by hooah212002
03-19-2010 8:28 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
How can you justify what we pay for premiums? Premiums that only the top of the food chain can realistically afford.
Not really. Most unions offer premium insurance at a very reasonable cost. Also, premium insurance is usually used more often by older people, those who need to see specialists and demand more care. By taking premium insurance away, you screw all these people who need better coverage.
You even grip about it here:
hooah writes:
Well, sorry to say, but good luck having an affordable plan that also has ANY type of specialist covered. That's another kicker: what services are covered? Oh, you need physical therapy? Ooh, sorry, that's not covered on your plan. You have an ulcer, or you need to get your stomach checked for one? Sorry, not covered.
Premium insurance DOES cover this extra stuff. And that's the reason this Bill will hurt many older people who will get screwed with medical bills for all the extra stuff they need. When, currently, their premium insurance covers it.
Any way you look at this Bill, its gonna screw someone. There are better ways and the government knows this. But since it is more about special interest groups and financial gain, we get this Bill.
- Oni

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 Message 61 by hooah212002, posted 03-19-2010 8:28 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 70 of 174 (550909)
03-19-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Flyer75
03-19-2010 7:37 AM


Re: Educated decisions on health reform
Doesn't seem right to me that all these people that DON'T work are given decent "free" (it's not free, someone pays for it) health care while you go to a job everyday, make a decent amount of money (I make 60-62K a year but up that to about 75-80k depending on the amount of overtime available in a given year) but your work offers no insurance and your stuck in no man's land with the cost of insurance.
Unless we place bouncers at the entrance of emergency rooms and charge a $2,000 dollar cover charge the poor will continue to get free care with or without insurance. At least with insurance they can access primary care which can prevent emergency room visits that are much more expensive. Also, primary care can hopefully resolve health issues before they necessitate a trip to the emergency room. These unpaid emergency room visits end up costing the insured money anyway, so it is in our best interest to offer free insurance to at least reduce the cost that is filtering down to us.
We can talk about what is fair and unfair, but unless you are willing to turn away people at the emergency room this is the best option (other than universal government run coverage).
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 71 of 174 (550910)
03-19-2010 11:03 AM


Ready for another shocker?
Are you guys ready for another shocker?
I dug a bit deeper into our healthcare insurance companies, and guess what?
Their profits are for the benefit of the people who are insured there, meaning that if there is any money left from a year, the amount you pay will go down, or not rise as much. There aren't any stockholders, the people insured are "members" of the company, and a "member council" keeps watch over the management of the company.
Yes, that's right, these guys aren't doing it for the profit!

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 72 of 174 (550911)
03-19-2010 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Huntard
03-19-2010 11:03 AM


Re: Ready for another shocker?
Yes, that's right, these guys aren't doing it for the profit!
The way it should be.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 11:03 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 73 of 174 (550912)
03-19-2010 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by onifre
03-19-2010 10:50 AM


Re: What the hell is it with those amounts?
Most unions offer premium insurance at a very reasonable cost.
Employers do this in two ways. First, the sheer number of the people in the pool allows them to get a better deal. If individuals are able to join together to make larger pools they would have access to the same deals.
Second, the employer pays the majority of the premium. This is money that the employer could be putting directly in your pocket. I would be making another 1000 bucks a month if my employer gave me that money instead of it going towards health insurance. I think this is something that people should keep in mind. If anyone is wondering why middle class take home earnings have flatlined look no further than employers paying more to supply health insurance. For the sake of argument, if you consider the employer contribution as a tax the middle class is probably paying more in taxes than countries with government run universal health coverage.
The only advantage is that the money the employer pays directly to the insurance company is pre-tax so you save money on your taxes. To make things more equitable they could restructure tax law to allow individuals who do not have employer supplied health insurance to deduct half of the cost of their premiums.
Not really. Most unions offer premium insurance at a very reasonable cost. Also, premium insurance is usually used more often by older people, those who need to see specialists and demand more care. By taking premium insurance away, you screw all these people who need better coverage.
The problem with the current system is that young, healthy people who can afford health insurance are not buying health insurance. If this group were added to the pool then there wouldn't be a need for higher premiums for the cadillac plans. Everyone could get access to the care they need at the same rates.
Any way you look at this Bill, its gonna screw someone. There are better ways and the government knows this. But since it is more about special interest groups and financial gain, we get this Bill.
Exactomundo.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 74 of 174 (550913)
03-19-2010 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Flyer75
03-19-2010 7:29 AM


Some actual numbers...
I'm not sure I understand your point on the individual/family difference. My work offers insurance to both, whether you are married or not. My cousin is a cop with me, he's single, but has an individual plan.
"Family" refers to those plans that cover more than just you within your household. For instance, I have my girlfriend on my employer's insurance as a domestic partner. Most "family" plans will be those who cover their spouse and children under the insurance from one adult's employer.
"Individual" is for those plans that only cover yourself.
Deductibles and co-pays are irrelevant. The cap is only about premiums, the amount you (and your employer, if applicable) pay per month (or paycheck) to the insurance company for coverage even if you're not using it at all.
Here's what the "family" plan entails. I pay $40 a paycheck for the family plan, it's $20 for individual plan. Also, a family plan means anybody that is married and/or children and the number of children does not matter...it's all the same whether you have 1 or 100 kids. I'm just going to continue to explain the family plan, not the individual because it's the same, the numbers just go down.
It looks like your share is far less than mine is (to be expected with Unions). Do you have any way of telling what the employer contribution is?
I just looked at my Benefits info. My premiums are a lot higher than I estimated a moment ago. Here's the details: My share in my Family coverage is roughly $200 per paycheck, so about $400 monthly. My employer pays 70%, so the total premium is around $1300 per month. This means that my total yearly premium for the purposes of the insurance cap is about $15,600. I'm very comfortably below the "family" cap of $24,000, so I won't be affected by any "Cadillac" tax. Mine is the best, most expensive plan offered by my employer (my girlfriend has a chronic illness, so I couldn't just get the low-cost version; note also that a lot of my goodwill for this bill, such as it is, comes from the fact that currently she cannot get private health insurance if she tried due to her "pre-existing condition").
In your case, Flyer, assuming you cover a spouse and/or children under your employer's insurance, your employer would need to be contributing nearly $2000 per month in premiums for you to hit the cap.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that your employer actually pays $2500 monthly for your insurance premiums. This means that your premiums would be around $30,000 per year, and puts you $6000 over the yearly cap. The "Cadillac" tax means you'd pay a 40% surtax on that $6000, so you'd pay about $2400 additional (well...more likely your employer).
Oni's argument is that this surtax will encourage employers to lower coverage, but we're talking about $2400 on top of an already absurd $30,000 per year - that's about an 8% increase. And it only affects those who already have absurdly expensive plans (remember, this is about double my real-world premiums). I'm not sure this will have the doomsday effect that Oni is predicting. In order to make that call, we need more data - specifically, we need to know the actual annual premium rate people pay to see if their plan will be affected, and if so, by how much.
I just went to Blue Cross Anthem of California and got a quickie quote for a private family plan. The most expensive plan they offer is $1063 per month in premiums for a family of 2 (I plugged in the ages for myself and my girlfriend). That would be $12,756 per year - far below the cap, and in fact less than I pay now (because I'm young, I could get insurance for less than what my employer has to pay - a 28 year old male is easier to insure than a 50 year old).
Plugging in the ages of 56 and 50 for a theoretical couple, the most expensive private plan is $1895 monthly, which works out to $22,740 per year - still below the cap.
Again, I'm choosing the absolute most expensive plans offered.
With that info, I'm not sure exactly who would be affected by the "Cadillac tax."
Flyer, if you can find the actual premium for the plan you get through your employer, that would help a lot in determining whether anyone's concerns (your or Onis) are warranted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those not in the US, let me give a quick rundown of my coverage (again, the best/most expensivemy employer offers):
My "Per Family" annual deductible is $600. My coinsurance for "per family" is 10% of up to $14,000 (so if I had a crazy expensive procedure, I'd have to pay up to $1400 of it). My total annual out-of-pocket maximum is $1000 per insured, or a total of $2000 for the whole family per calendar year. I pay $20 to visit a doctor, which includes basic labs, x-rays, etc, as long as they're done in-house, not by an out-of-network 3rd party. Generic prescriptions are $5; brand name are $30 when no generic is available, $50 when a generic is available. The drug copay does not count towards the out-of-pocket maximums. I can pay less by ordering through the mail (double the co-pay, but 3x the supply).
My family's monthly out-of-pocket costs amount to roughly $400 in premiums, about $100 in medication (for my girlfriend alone, I don't take anything atm), and $20-40 for doctor's visits (again her - I'm bad, and don't go to the doctor even though I should). That's about $500-550 for a normal month where nobody has an emergency or anything.
ABE:
This makes my monthly out-of-pocket healthcare expenses my single largest monthly expenditure other than rent. It's also roughly 45% or so what I pay in State/Federal taxes. Food for thought.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 75 of 174 (550914)
03-19-2010 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Huntard
03-19-2010 11:03 AM


Re: Ready for another shocker?
Are you guys ready for another shocker?
I dug a bit deeper into our healthcare insurance companies, and guess what?
Their profits are for the benefit of the people who are insured there, meaning that if there is any money left from a year, the amount you pay will go down, or not rise as much. There aren't any stockholders, the people insured are "members" of the company, and a "member council" keeps watch over the management of the company.
Yes, that's right, these guys aren't doing it for the profit!
Are you guys ready for another shocker?
I dug a bit deeper into our healthcare insurance companies, and guess what?
Their profits are for the benefit of the people who are insured there, meaning that if there is any money left from a year, the amount you pay will go down, or not rise as much. There aren't any stockholders, the people insured are "members" of the company, and a "member council" keeps watch over the management of the company.
Yes, that's right, these guys aren't doing it for the profit!
Congress proposed non-governmental, non-profit insurance after it became apparent that the public option wouldn't pass the Senate. The Republicans were dead set against it, and many Democrats were against it because it didn't go far enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Huntard, posted 03-19-2010 11:03 AM Huntard has not replied

  
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