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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 781 of 892 (796213)
12-25-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by Porosity
12-25-2016 12:06 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Porosity writes:
Never underestimate the power of stupid.
This is true, but why are the stupid making not just stupid choices, but nasty, evil choices? It's not random stupid, it's millions of people voting for horrid and dangerous.
I just Don't get that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Porosity, posted 12-25-2016 12:06 PM Porosity has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by Porosity, posted 12-25-2016 12:50 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 785 by nwr, posted 12-25-2016 3:49 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 12-25-2016 4:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Porosity
Member (Idle past 2094 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


(4)
Message 782 of 892 (796215)
12-25-2016 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Tangle
12-25-2016 12:27 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
This is true, but why are the stupid making not just stupid choices, but nasty, evil choices? It's not random stupid, it's millions of people voting for horrid and dangerous.
I just Don't get that.
They think they're making good choices.
It's the internet age of people living in their own social bubbles of confirmation bias, making it nearly impossible to properly vet and process the information they are receiving.
And then they pile up in the mega-churches and shore up those biases to complete the perfect circle jerk.
Voltaire: Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities
Edited by Porosity, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2016 12:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2016 3:26 PM Porosity has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 783 of 892 (796216)
12-25-2016 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by RAZD
12-25-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
No. He won because the system is rigged. Because of suppression of minority and liberal votes in republican states. Because of hacked voting machines. Because of election fraud. This has been going on since 2002.
Unless you can back this stuff up with evidence, you are simply contributing to the problem of misunderstanding between the sides. The other side claims that millions of illegal immigrants voted in California with a similar lack of evidence. Beyond that, most folks who believe neither claim has any basis in reality see plenty of reasons to be disgusted at the election results and disappointed with the educated folks who voted for Trump.
The primary system appeared to be rigged against Trump during his campaign. Many folks thought that the electoral system and the democratic leaning states were an insurmountable obstacle for Trump. It is almost laughable how quickly that idea disappeared. Most folks now say that the electoral college is a Republican advantage.
North Carolina no longer ranks as a democracy
Yeah, it does suck here. No question about that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by RAZD, posted 12-25-2016 8:40 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2016 10:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 784 of 892 (796217)
12-25-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 782 by Porosity
12-25-2016 12:50 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Porosity writes:
They think they're making good choices
They must think they're making the right choices, but I don't think we can blame it on 'stupid' only. There's some very screwed up values here. And it's many millions of them. Society has gone wrong somewhere.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Porosity, posted 12-25-2016 12:50 PM Porosity has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by Coyote, posted 12-25-2016 3:50 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 791 by Porosity, posted 12-25-2016 7:21 PM Tangle has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 785 of 892 (796218)
12-25-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Tangle
12-25-2016 12:27 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
This is true, but why are the stupid making not just stupid choices, but nasty, evil choices?
That's because they are American conservative Christians, which means that they are worshipers of Jesus Ayn Rand Christ (sometimes known as "the anti-Christ").

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2016 12:27 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 786 of 892 (796219)
12-25-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by Tangle
12-25-2016 3:26 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Tangle writes:
There's some very screwed up values here. And it's many millions of them. Society has gone wrong somewhere.
Indeed!
All I Want for Christmas is White Genocide

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2016 3:26 PM Tangle has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 787 of 892 (796220)
12-25-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 776 by Percy
12-25-2016 7:35 AM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Faith doesn't seem to understand that what is being mourned is not the loss of the election but the loss of rationality, discernment, and compassion at the top. Even the Republicans bemoaned this candidate. He has none of the qualities people from both sides want in a president, and many qualities most people find not only undesirable but despicable. The article describes how these feelings of people who voted against Trump are different from past lost elections, that those elections then were not accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and despair for our democracy.
Trump is a deplorable human being and he will soon be leader of the most powerful country on Earth. This should be a cause of great concern to people of all stripes everywhere throughout the world.
This message, combined with your previous messages 758 and 763, indicate to me that you're getting your news only from a few biased sources, and using it to work yourself into a nervous wreck over someone who's not going to be nearly as bad as you imagine.
Obama himself lately has addressed the subject of "fake news", maybe a topic that deserves it's own thread, but I don't think it's off topic to address it's basics here. Here's a link on what he said;
Fake news threatens democracy, Obama says
What's he's mainly addressed here is untrue stories that appear on the internet, and can sometimes be adopted as true by someone more prominent in news reporting. But "fake news" is really much more complex than that. Trust in the mainstream news media is at an all time low, it's obvious since Trump was elected. I've had ABC World News Tonight's half hour report on most evenings for years, and for the past 6 months, the first 5 or 10 minutes of the show has been little more than Hillary commercials, twisted put-downs of Trump. I think it's a form of fake news when heavily biased people arrange news programs that describe themselves as responsible news reporters.
Another prominent form of fake news is the OMMISSION of information - declining to report facts that refute the narrative touted by special interests’ or their own editorial positions.For example, does this surprise you?
Media Blackout On Obama’s Last-Minute Civil Rights Appointments | The Daily Caller
quote:
Liberal news outlets like The New York Times, The Washington Post and CNN are keeping their readers in the dark about two aggressive appointments to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights made by President Obama with just weeks remaining in his presidency.
You should try to understand that other people might choose to access information that you don't. There's other information out there, in addition to these appointments, that strongly indicate that Obama might be putting his own little temper tantrums about Trump getting elected over what's best for the country. Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency.
but the loss of rationality, discernment, and compassion at the top.
He didn't build his business, employ thousands of people, get through countless building regulations in New York to build his tower, or do the charitable things he's done by being any of those things.
Even the Republicans bemoaned this candidate.
Not all of them. Have you noticed that most of the ones who did have been in politics for a long time? Live a nice lifestyle? Could it be that maybe they're nervous about a second look at the losing the status quo? As in their corrupt little ride?
He has none of the qualities people from both sides want in a president, and many qualities most people find not only undesirable but despicable.
Then how did he get elected? By people who have more/different information than you?
The article describes how these feelings of people who voted against Trump are different from past lost elections, that those elections then were not accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and despair for our democracy.
The article was written by someone with very biased views, there was plenty of hopelessness and despair when Reagan was elected, and the fears were similar for those on the left at the thought of a McCain or Romney presidency. The intensity is higher for Trump of course, but it's mainly because there's more jealousy of his success, and there's more embarrassment over the way the left made fools of themselves leading up to his victory, by all their laughter and jokes about his candidacy.
The U.S. has been largely built on genuine enthusiasm, ~pride in one's work~. But the downside to capitalism is that "pride in work" usually comes in second, behind MONEY. News reporting is no different than any other business. Reporting boring information, making sure it's nothing more than balanced and informative, isn't as profitable as sensationalism in news reporting. We have a first amendment, the press is "free", and the only ones to police what they do is the public at large. The voters just did that, by getting their information from a variety of sources. You should watch Fox News sometime. They're every bit as biased as the NY Times, but not more biased. There IS information there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 12-25-2016 7:35 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by Percy, posted 12-25-2016 5:36 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 788 of 892 (796221)
12-25-2016 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Tangle
12-25-2016 12:27 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
This is true, but why are the stupid making not just stupid choices, but nasty, evil choices? It's not random stupid, it's millions of people voting for horrid and dangerous.
I just Don't get that.
I don't either. I just do not get Hillary or Obama supporters. Not just stupid but nasty evil horrid and dangerous. I really really do not get it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2016 12:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 793 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-26-2016 12:14 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 794 by Tangle, posted 12-26-2016 3:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 789 of 892 (796222)
12-25-2016 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 776 by Percy
12-25-2016 7:35 AM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Faith doesn't seem to understand that what is being mourned is not the loss of the election but the loss of rationality, discernment, and compassion at the top.
For sure I don't understand how anyone could see it that way. The idea that there is any rationality whatever in the Democratic Party just has me blinking compulsively; the idea that there is any genuine compassion in the Democratic Party, or Hillary herself, is utterly mind-boggling; Discernment? No. The Left lives in a cocoon of inverted values and understanding. They took leave of reality years ago. This is why you cannot understand the simple honest people who wanted Trump instead, in spite of his flaws. His flaws are infinitely preferable to what the Left calls the virtues of their people. Blink blink blink blink.
The Republicans who bemoaned Trump are also out of touch, contaminated with the Leftist mental aberrations.
The idea that Hillary could have in any way at all been personally preferable to Trump is flabbergasting, whatever Trump's personal flaws. WHATEVER.
Hopelessness and despair for our democracy? YOU BET that's what we saw happening with Obama and all the more so with Hillary. WHY DON'T YOU GET IT? IT's PRECISELY our democracy that the Left has been killing for years now. Precisely. What I despair of is people who can't see this.
Trump will actually be a decent President despite all the leftist lies and smears.
Deplorable human being? No, you are looking through Leftist lenses and magnifying the faults of the man. HILLARY is far more deplorable and Obama too, but you are all blind to the truth about them, utterly out of touch with reality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 12-25-2016 7:35 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(6)
Message 790 of 892 (796223)
12-25-2016 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by marc9000
12-25-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
marc9000 writes:
This message, combined with your previous messages 758 and 763, indicate to me that you're getting your news only from a few biased sources,...
Unless Trump didn't say, "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability," or he didn't pressure Obama over a U.N. resolution on Israeli West Bank settlements, the news reported in Message 758 was perfectly accurate, and the link in Message 763 was to an editorial, not a news article.
...and using it to work yourself into a nervous wreck over someone who's not going to be nearly as bad as you imagine.
It's isn't the news that encourages negative views of Trump - it's his own words and actions that show him to be misogynist, secretive, racist, antidemocratic, uninformed, impulsive, crude, self-centered and repugnant.
You should try to understand that other people might choose to access information that you don't.
I hope you're interested in having the most accurate information available.
but the loss of rationality, discernment, and compassion at the top.
He didn't build his business, employ thousands of people, get through countless building regulations in New York to build his tower, or do the charitable things he's done by being any of those things.
You said this backwards, but I get your meaning. Whatever knowledge and talents Trump brought to the conduct of his businesses, during the election campaign his pronouncements across a broad range of political topics revealed little rationality or discernment and certainly no compassion. In fact he displayed no admirable qualities, just a gift for verbal fisticuffs.
Do you truly admire what you seem to think of as Trump's excellent business acumen? The way he saved his financial skin exiting Atlantic City? The racism he displayed in New York? The evictions? The questionable tax avoidance?
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency.
Would this be the same Washington Post that destroyed the Nixon presidency?
Even the Republicans bemoaned this candidate.
Not all of them. Have you noticed that most of the ones who did have been in politics for a long time? Live a nice lifestyle? Could it be that maybe they're nervous about a second look at the losing the status quo? As in their corrupt little ride?
Long-standing Republicans with a "nice lifestyle" on a "corrupt little ride"? Who knew!
The article was written by someone with very biased views,...
It was an editorial reflecting the attitudes of many who voted against Trump. It never represented itself as unbiased news, nobody claimed it was news, nobody claimed it doesn't reflect a particular point of view.
...there was plenty of hopelessness and despair when Reagan was elected...
No, there was not hopelessness and despair about the future of our democracy.
The U.S. has been largely built on genuine enthusiasm, ~pride in one's work~. But the downside to capitalism is that "pride in work" usually comes in second, behind MONEY.
Well, yes, precisely, and now a very avaricious capitalist has been given the keys to the most powerful country in the world.
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Restore message links that had somehow become plain text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by marc9000, posted 12-25-2016 3:57 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 792 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2016 8:58 PM Percy has replied

  
Porosity
Member (Idle past 2094 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


(2)
Message 791 of 892 (796224)
12-25-2016 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by Tangle
12-25-2016 3:26 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
They must think they're making the right choices, but I don't think we can blame it on 'stupid' only. There's some very screwed up values here. And it's many millions of them. Society has gone wrong somewhere.
Stupid does play a major roll though, just look at recent studies. Some 18% of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth and that's just one question in many that they fail on. Much of this idiocy can be traced back to religious ideology being legislated into our public schools and the numbers don't lie. The higher the religious influence, the lower the academic scores and this can be seen across the board in states that have been infiltrated by these christian cults.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2016 3:26 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 792 of 892 (796225)
12-25-2016 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by Percy
12-25-2016 5:36 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Unless Trump didn't say, "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability," or he didn't pressure Obama over a U.N. resolution on Israeli West Bank settlements, the news reported in Message 758 was perfectly accurate
Exactly. And here is indeed a distinction between your argument and the one marc9000 makes. Folks are worried about Trump based on things Trump has unquestionably said or done and not based on some conspiracy theory they've manufactured. I understand that some folks "choose to access information that you don't" and also choose to believe anything they read or see there. Maybe the lack of coverage of some things on main stream sources (which I agree with marc9000 do omit things) is a good reason to look elsewhere.
But you still have to vet sources and I see no evidence whatsoever that either Faith or marc9000 are capable of filtering what they hear for the truth. So what comes across is a debate about what Trump has undeniably said and done, versus yeah but Obama is a Kenyan, or Hillary is running a sex slave shop in the back of a pizzeria.
marc9000 writes:
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency.
Lol! I might well have made this accusation if marc9000 had not said it himself. Best example ever.
Surely there are some Trump supporters who don't think quite this way. Where are they?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by Percy, posted 12-25-2016 5:36 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by Percy, posted 12-26-2016 10:50 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(4)
Message 793 of 892 (796227)
12-26-2016 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Faith
12-25-2016 4:02 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Faith writes:
I just do not get Hillary or Obama supporters. Not just ****** but nasty evil horrid and dangerous. I really really do not get it.
I could not have said it better myself.....that is exactly how I feel about you.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 12-25-2016 4:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 794 of 892 (796228)
12-26-2016 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Faith
12-25-2016 4:02 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Faith writes:
I don't either. I just do not get Hillary or Obama supporters. Not just ****** but nasty evil horrid and dangerous. I really really do not get it.
Althought I don't really understand how you can reject all evidence underpinning things like evolution in favour of an ancient primitive myth, I can at least accept that it's a delusion based on a powerful religious dogma. But I really can't find an excuse for your apparent love of a man that by his own words and actions flies in the face of every Christian value you claim to hold.
Even if you feel that in this election you were being asked to choose between two despicable options, it's a quite indefensible to white wash the in-your-face sins of this guy. The USA - and the world - is going to have to be very lucky to get through the next few years without serious and long lasting damage. The best you can hope for is that he only mangaes to make himself even richer than he is now.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 12-25-2016 4:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 795 of 892 (796229)
12-26-2016 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 774 by Faith
12-24-2016 8:40 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
quote:
Good description of exactly what we've seen from the left since they lost. Pack of liars beyond belief
Hardly. As many have pointed out the concerns over a Trump presidency are very real. Nobody knows which of his campaign promises he intends to keep, and which were lies. There is the Trump University scam. There is the enquiry into the Trump Foundation. At best Trump is a one-percenter who will happily screw people over, elected on a platform of Nationalism and xenophobia (which he may or may not intend to follow). One wonders how many of the people who compared Obama to Hitler said the same about Trump - they would have been less unjustified.
quote:
...so bad you guys didn't even know you were going to lose you'd lied to yourselves so much about what Americans want.
What a short memory you have. The Republicans were complaining about the polls in 2008 - when the polls turned out to be correct. Your accusation can be more justly directed at your side. Not that justice is anything you care about or even understand.
quote:
Such bad losers a bunch of you poor sad souls have been trying since November 8 to steal the election (since the efforts before that date couldn't defeat us) and still plotting, probably fro months to come. Peaceful exchange of power, ha! Only when the civilized side has to give in, and that is not your side
Which only proves that if Hialeah had won you would be ranting about the election being stolen. And Trump is hardly civilised - he was happy to encourage violence against opponents. And you, yourself, want to beat up people who dare to prove you wrong.
quote:
Hilary would have been the disaster, on top of the disaster of Obama.
Hilary would certainly not have been my choice for the Democratic candidate. Unfortunately the Republican Party has been getting more and more extreme, to the point where the base is flirting with Fascism. And I note that Obama's presidency has hardly been a disaster and that many of the problems were due to the Republicans.
We only need to look at the Affordable Care Act to see that. If a President tries to sort out a major problem and takes up a proposal from the opposing party to do so, why would they not cooperate. Why would some of them start screaming about "Death Panels" or complaining about "Socialised Medicine" when none of that is at all true ? How can anyone come to any conclusion but that the Republican Party is full of screaming partisan liars who - at best - didn't want a Democratic President t get the credit for making healthcare more available ?
quote:
Funny how what you say about us is as usual true of you. The killers of democracy are your side.
It that were true, then why do we have facts while you have unsubstantiated accusations - mostly from sources who love to publish unsubstantiated- or even downright insane - accusations against the Democrats ? Do you really want to defend the pizzagate accusations ? Or is that evil something you prefer to ignore and suppress ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Faith, posted 12-24-2016 8:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
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