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Author Topic:   Microsoft outdoes themselves again, in a bad way
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 45 (691561)
02-23-2013 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
02-22-2013 11:15 PM


Re: Estoppel
What is the promise Hotmail made?
Where is it stated clearly and definitely?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-23-2013 12:19 PM Jon has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 32 of 45 (691562)
02-23-2013 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
02-23-2013 1:13 AM


Not really. I never said a free service can't be great; I simply said that the free-service provider is under no obligation to make their free service greator even mediocre.
Right, but then we're perfectly entitled to say: "Gee, Hotmail is rubbish, isn't it, not half as good as Gmail." It's not as though Theodoric was leading a mob with torches and pitchforks to MS headquarters. If the user has no other rights, then kvetching is still covered by the First Amendment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 02-23-2013 1:13 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 33 of 45 (691567)
02-23-2013 5:21 AM


In a general way, I'd say that there is a moral, if not a legal, question about the supplier of free stuff. But let us distinguish.
(1) If someone gives me a free toaster, and tells me what an awesome toaster it is, and how I don't need to buy a toaster 'cos they're giving me one for free, and then it breaks, then I'm just back to square one. I had no toaster, briefly I had a toaster, now I have no toaster again. I can always resolve this problem by buying another toaster.
(2) If, on the other hand, someone gives me a free parachute, and tells me what an awesome parachute it is, and how I don't need to buy a parachute 'cos they're giving me one for free, and then it breaks, then I am not just back at square one. I'm plummeting to my death. And I cannot resolve this problem by buying another parachute.
Now it seems to me that if my free email stops working, this is more like the second case than the first. I am not just back to square one, and I can't resolve this problem just by buying another email service.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 34 of 45 (691570)
02-23-2013 5:58 AM


Microsoft's obligation to the user are what the user agreed to when they clicked the 'agree' button. A free service is still a service; both parties have obligations and they're declared in the T&Cs.
Microsoft benefits by offering this service, if they didn't, it wouldn't exist but it is generally understood that the service will be fairly limited in terms of support. On the other hand, this kind of service failure isn't expected from a major brand and people are perfectly entiteled to complain when it fails this badly and MS doesn't do what seems necessary to fix it.
MS leads people to expect things about their service and when it doesn't live up to those expectations, people will shout and MS will suffer brand damage. That's the way it works - people have high expectation of a service regardless of price once they start to rely on it - companies that don't get that are in for trouble.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 45 (691582)
02-23-2013 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Adequate
02-23-2013 3:16 AM


Right, but then we're perfectly entitled to say: "Gee, Hotmail is rubbish, isn't it, not half as good as Gmail."
But that's not the end of the complaint.
Theo thinks Hotmail should do more for its squatters than it already does.
That's immoral.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-23-2013 3:16 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 02-23-2013 8:52 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 45 (691584)
02-23-2013 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Adequate
02-23-2013 5:21 AM


Now it seems to me that if my free email stops working, this is more like the second case than the first. I am not just back to square one, and I can't resolve this problem just by buying another email service.
Because Theo's mother-in-law is not lying dead in a ditch from Microsoft's lack of support for its free services I'd say the email situation is nothing like the free-parachute situation.
What are the real damages from losing an email account for which the service provider is culpable?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-23-2013 5:21 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 37 of 45 (691585)
02-23-2013 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jon
02-23-2013 8:16 AM


Theo thinks Hotmail should do more for its squatters than it already does.
That's immoral.
Immoral? Are you fucking serious?
Go away itchy ass. (Billy Connolly reference)
Squatters?
Do you have any ideas what that word means? People are invited to use Hotmail.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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 Message 35 by Jon, posted 02-23-2013 8:16 AM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 38 of 45 (691626)
02-23-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Theodoric
02-22-2013 7:36 PM


Theodoric writes:
Seems some people think that getting fucked over by corporations is ok.
Well, it's Standard Operationg Procedure.
Theodoric writes:
Wonder what it is that they bitch about.
I bitch about free services all the time. I bitch about the free email service that I use. I bitch about the free software that I use to access it. I bitch about EvC.
I just don't expect anybody to listen. I bitch as therapy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Theodoric, posted 02-22-2013 7:36 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 39 of 45 (691627)
02-23-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
02-23-2013 11:55 AM


I just don't expect anybody to listen. I bitch as therapy.
My point exactly.
Got into her email this morning. Not sure how I was able to get them to send an unlock code to my email, but they did.
Doesn't seem that security is so important after all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 40 of 45 (691628)
02-23-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
02-23-2013 1:17 AM


Re: Estoppel
Why do you think Microsoft offers its email for free? Because they are nice guys?
One reason they do this is because the more you log into your email account, the more you click on msn's webpages-and thus the advertising space on their pages becomes more valuable.
Its not a case of one taking from them and they are getting nothing. They are also locking me into their other services, like Msn messenger. There are other chat software available, but Microsoft wants you to use theirs.
So I don't buy you argument, that since we have siphoned off them, they owe the users nothing.
If I go to a mall to go shopping, and I park my car in the malls lot, and when I come back the parking lot and all the cars are gone, can they say, well, what do you want, the parking was free. Your car was fine for a few hours, how long do you want us to protect you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 02-23-2013 1:17 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 41 of 45 (691629)
02-23-2013 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dr Adequate
02-22-2013 9:15 PM


... here's all my stuff.
I suspect that a careful reading of the fine print would reveal that messages created in that software are in fact Microsoft's stuff, not the user's. It's more like Microsoft Beach on the sunny shores of Microsoft Artificial Lake. You are cordially invited to come to the private beach and build Microsoft Sand castles while the owner takes candid pictures of your ass. When a squall blows through and the waves wreck your castle though, the lifeguard just ain't interested.
Capt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-22-2013 9:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 45 (691640)
02-23-2013 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Theodoric
02-23-2013 12:16 PM


Not sure how I was able to get them to send an unlock code to my email, but they did.
Doesn't seem that security is so important after all.
Unbelievable; they actually provide the support you are requesting and you still have a gripe about their service.
What more could they possibly give to satisfy a user like yourself when they have already given you everything you demanded?
I just don't know what it is you expect from these people.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 02-23-2013 12:16 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 45 (691642)
02-23-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Bolder-dash
02-23-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Estoppel
If I go to a mall to go shopping, and I park my car in the malls lot, and when I come back the parking lot and all the cars are gone, can they say, well, what do you want, the parking was free. Your car was fine for a few hours, how long do you want us to protect you?
Which is exactly what they would say. The owner of the parking lot is under no obligation to protect your car; and if it were stolen while you visited the store they would likely do little if anything to help you out.
One reason they do this is because the more you log into your email account, the more you click on msn's webpages-and thus the advertising space on their pages becomes more valuable.
Its not a case of one taking from them and they are getting nothing. They are also locking me into their other services, like Msn messenger. There are other chat software available, but Microsoft wants you to use theirs.
And you incur that 'cost' willingly and with the understanding that the benefit you receive from the service is greater. This cost is incurred only while you are using the service, and there is no promise from either party to continue this relationship of viewing ads in exchange for email service into the future.
If you think there is such a promise, show me where that promise is made.
So I don't buy you argument,
My guess is that you don't buy much of anything, getting whatever you can for nothing from whomever won't give it to you.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-23-2013 12:19 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 8:46 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 45 (691671)
02-23-2013 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jon
02-23-2013 2:12 PM


Re: Estoppel
The owner of the parking lot is under no obligation to protect your car; and if it were stolen while you visited the store they would likely do little if anything to help you out.
Do you think that the owner of the parking would be under no obligation if the owner was the one who made your car disappear?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 02-23-2013 2:12 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 02-23-2013 11:27 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 45 (691678)
02-23-2013 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
02-23-2013 8:46 PM


Re: Estoppel
Do you think that the owner of the parking would be under no obligation if the owner was the one who made your car disappear?
All the inapplicable analogies in the world won't change a thing.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 8:46 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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