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Author Topic:   Neither a theist nor an atheist
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 46 of 118 (732610)
07-09-2014 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by granpa
07-09-2014 12:20 AM


the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic
Clarke's Third Law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 118 (732612)
07-09-2014 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by granpa
07-09-2014 12:20 AM


the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic
I sha'n't quibble over what you want to call it, if I saw a fairy godmother turning a pumpkin into a coach I'd call it "magic", if you want to call it something else that's fair enough.
Let's get back to what you mean by "reasonable".

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 118 (732623)
07-09-2014 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by hooah212002
07-08-2014 10:20 PM


think in academia we all agree that the temperature on Mars is exactly as it is here
Just based on a belief that God definitely exists, however that belief is obtained, can locate you in quadrant II. So I'm not sure I understand your point. In which quadrant would you estimate that Faith belongs?
In contrast, I take ringo's statement as meaning that no one can legitimately be in quadrants I or II. Does that possibility seem correct to you?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by hooah212002, posted 07-08-2014 10:20 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by hooah212002, posted 07-09-2014 12:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 118 (732654)
07-09-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by NoNukes
07-08-2014 9:42 PM


NoNukes writes:
And my point is that their belief alone, whether well supported or unfounded, is enough to disqualify them as agnostic.
And I make a distinction between professed belief and "real" belief, as you may recall from other threads.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 118 (732655)
07-09-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
07-08-2014 11:25 PM


Re: Gnostic Theists Dont Exist?
Phat writes:
Would you go so far as to say that there are no gnostic theists?
I'd go so far as to say there are people who think they're gnostic theists but I don't believe them.
Phat writes:
If they plausibly exist, how does their belief differ from mine?
We can "see" what beliefs people profess and we can see how they "act out" their actual beliefs. There likely are people who profess similarly to you and people who act similarly to you. They are not necessarily the same people.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 118 (732656)
07-09-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by hooah212002
07-08-2014 10:20 PM


I'd replace the cross in that diagram with a big gray square.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 52 of 118 (732658)
07-09-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
07-09-2014 4:09 AM


I am an agnostic atheist because I do not profess to know for certain that god does not exist and I leave open the possibility of some god existing and therefor, i do not believe in any gods.
I see faith as being a Gnostic Theist because she is confident she knows god does exist and believes in it. There is no doubt in her mind, as far as I can tell, about that existence. It is not up to me, an outside agent, to determine what someone else actually knows, so I can only go off what they say.
Just based on a belief that God definitely exists, however that belief is obtained, can locate you in quadrant II.
Gnosticism deals with knowledge, theism with belief. Here is a good article about it: Atheist vs. Agnostic
In contrast, I take ringo's statement as meaning that no one can legitimately be in quadrants I or II. Does that possibility seem correct to you?
I am not sure I really follow or necessarily agree with Ringo, but I don't quite know what he is saying to have an opinion. He seems to me to be saying that he knows what other people know or don't know and is making the distinction for them. If that is the case, I do not agree. These sorts of topics, imo, are on an individual level and ought to be left up to the individual to determine.
Not that definitions are arbiters of usage, but the first definition of gnostic is:
quote:
of or relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
(one soon finds that this word is really muddied due to actual Gnosticism as a set of beliefs)

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(2)
Message 53 of 118 (732690)
07-09-2014 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by granpa
07-07-2014 10:52 AM


I myself am a follower of an alternate way. My mantra is Wisdom, Truth, and Fraternity. It can be shortened to WTF, so anytime you see those letter, you know they too are a follower of the alternate way.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 118 (732691)
07-10-2014 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by hooah212002
07-09-2014 12:38 PM


duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by hooah212002, posted 07-09-2014 12:38 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 55 of 118 (732692)
07-10-2014 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by hooah212002
07-09-2014 12:38 PM


I see faith as being a Gnostic Theist because she is confident she knows god does exist and believes in it. There is no doubt in her mind, as far as I can tell, about that existence. It is not up to me, an outside agent, to determine what someone else actually knows, so I can only go off what they say.
That's pretty much my take on it too. I knew we could agree about something.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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 Message 52 by hooah212002, posted 07-09-2014 12:38 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 118 (732724)
07-10-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by hooah212002
07-09-2014 12:38 PM


hooah212002 writes:
I am not sure I really follow or necessarily agree with Ringo, but I don't quite know what he is saying to have an opinion. He seems to me to be saying that he knows what other people know or don't know and is making the distinction for them.
I don't claim to know what other people know. I just don't believe they know what they think they know. I don't believe in theists in the same way I don't believe in gods.

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 57 of 118 (732732)
07-10-2014 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Coyote
07-08-2014 12:14 AM


Re: I'm confused...
And, between absolutes, how is any "middle path" possible anyway?
It's the same as being a little bit pregnant.

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granpa
Member (Idle past 2341 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 58 of 118 (732733)
07-10-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taq
07-10-2014 1:04 PM


Re: I'm confused...
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no? Or are you asking agnostic?
and first of all you have to define God
Edited by granpa, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 07-10-2014 1:04 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 62 by Taq, posted 07-10-2014 2:52 PM granpa has replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 118 (732734)
07-10-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by granpa
07-10-2014 1:11 PM


Re: I'm confused...
granpa writes:
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?
No.
Have I stopped taking heroin? No.
Have I stopped ruling the universe? No.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 118 (732735)
07-10-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
07-10-2014 11:53 AM


I just don't believe they know what they think they know.
That would make you either agnostic or atheist rather than them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 07-10-2014 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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