Define literal vs non-literal.

woah, wait, no - when god created the heaven and the earth, and divided the waters from the waters, and the light from the dark, that was the evening and the morning of the first day. That first day - which starts with the evening remember - did NOT have a morning before it.Just, you know, pointing that out Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

And still you didn't make your case in Hebrew.

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i think your link provides enough information.

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Excellent! That means you agree with me and yom refers to a solar day in Genesis 1:5. We can now move onto something else.(You just screamed in frustration didn't you? I know the feeling. )

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Do you even read your own links???

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I do, but apparently you don't comprehend what you read. Maybe you don't understand literal and non-literal in everyday English. Hebrew HoursYou're assuming that the sentence "The Hebrew day and hours have NO FIXED LENGTH." agrees with your idea of an unspecified length of time for the word yom. You are incorrect. He's talking about daylight. The length of the solar day is specified. It is the rotation of the planet, which gives us evening and morning. (In reality the scripture reference was modeled after the Hebrew day, but that's anther issue.)Evening (`ereb) means night, sunset.Morning (boqer) means end of night, coming of daylight.I really don't believe I have to explain this to you. Evening and Morning describe the components of a solar day. That is the specified length of the solar day. Remember that the word day can refer to the daylight as well as the complete solar day which include night and daylight. Since you can't differentiate the usages of the word day, I will rephrase.What he's saying is that the Hebrew solar day is based on twelve hours of daylight and twelve hours of night. Every daylight has twelve hours and every night has twelve hours. Each daylight begins with sunrise and ends with sunset and each hour is determined by the amount of daylight there is, hence that no daylight is fixed and hours are different each day (this one could be daylight or solar day). I've covered this before. Message 80The length of an hour differed with the seasons. You apparently refuse the literal definition of yom, which is the name of the light hours or a solar day (full rotation of the planet).Since you agree with my link, we are essentially done, although I'm sure you will counter that I don't understand the link. So then we're back to arguing English comprehension.But I am curious how you view that unspecified length of time you claim yom refers to.Do you understand that the fist use of yom in Genesis 1:5 is just a name?
I've been assuming that you view the second use of yom in Genesis 1:5 as several rotations of the planet instead of one. Is that correct? If that is correct, then you are ignoring the writers use of evening and morning for your own purposes.You know that the context of the sentence determines how a word is used. You've said it several times. Why do you ignore your own words to try and reconcile science and the Bible? They don't need to be reconciled.If you change the meaning of yom in Genesis, then you change the setup for the Hebrew week and Sabbath.You claim to believe that this was written by Moses and essentially dictated by God, but you have no problem changing it to suit your purposes. It really boggles my mind.This type of gobbledygook you put forth is what makes some distrust Christians. You can't stick to your own rules, let alone the basic rules of English or Hebrew.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Hi greyseal, When was this waters created?
When was the land created that appeared when the waters was gathered into one place?The earth existed prior to Genesis 1:2.
It was evening at Genesis 1:2.So when was the earth created?How can you have an evening without a morning?God Bless, Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

But how can you have a morning without an evening.
The jewish day starts with evening.
So looking at in context with the people that originally held these beliefs, one would have to say that the day began with the evening and then the sun came up and it was morning. Then the day ended when the sun went down, thus beginning a new day.Maybe you have a cultural block, that forces you to be unable to conceive that the day does not begin with the sunrise(morning). It is quite obvious that the Jewish day begins with sunset. Therefore the first day started in darkness before the sun arose approx 12 hours later(depending of course on the time of the year).
Personally, I would have made Eden closer to the equator. Eliminating the need to calculate length of day and night, with the tilt of the axis and all that.I mean is it really that hard to conceive that the day began in darkness. Everyday of your life begins in darkness. Unless of course you live at one of the poles, then at times there might be some light at midnight. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Hi Theodoric, It is completely inconceviable that the universe came into existence in total darkness.Especially if it was the millions of degrees Kevin that is put forth by science..I think that would have been a light period that was very long before it became dark. But I could be mistaken.The universe did not begin to exist in Genesis 1:2 which according to the Bible was a few thousand years ago..The universe began to exist in Genesis 1:1 which there is not a stated time for the beginning to exist other than it began to exist in the beginning.God Bless, Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

It took a bit before photons could exists and there could actually be 'light'.Take a look at this, especially parts 4 and 5: Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

You are trying to reconcile science with myth.Either you read the book as it says, or you try to read modern understanding into it, in which case you would have a different book all together. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

(Sorry for being off-line for awhile--I had a very busy week at work.)

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I disagree. It you read the context, it refers to a 24 hour day, in reference to verse 7. I do agree that elsewhere, day refers to a long period of time.

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Perhaps, but I think it's unlikely in the context. The surrounding verses repeatedly mention "on that day," and seem to be speaking of a long period of time. The day is certainly not well-defined, as it has "no light" according to Zech 14:7.

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But the crux of my entire argument is that when evening AND mornig are used, its always a 24 hour day. Nowhere does this verse state "morning". I am comparing what Genesis states (evening and morning) to where that terminology is used elsewhere in scripture.

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If that is your argument, it's quite weak. Outside of Genesis 1 (the passage in question), there are only three verses in the OT that contain all of the words "day" (singular), "evening," and "morning:" There are only three verses in the OT that fit your requirement. A rule that is based on only three occurrances is not a very strong rule!There is one other verse with "days" instead of "day": This verse is using "many days" as a metaphor for a long period of time. Since the word is part of a metaphor, it is hard to insist that these days must be 24 hours.

You may be misunderstanding my claims. I have NOT claimed in this thread that "day" in Genesis 1 means a "long period of time." Rather, I argue that it is an indefinite, indeterminate period of time, at least on the first 3 days. I have repeatedly said that it is wrong to insist on ANY specific length of time for these days, whether 24 hours or long periods.I object to your repeated claims that "day" with a number, or "day" with "evening" and "morning" ALWAYS refers to a 24-hour period of time. I believe "day" can be used in an indefinite, indeterminate sense, or in a figurative, metaphorical sense, even with numbers and with "evening and morning."

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Find me an instance where YOM is used with morning and evening to refer to a long period of time.

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No, I will not try to find you an instance where "yom" refers to "a long period of time," but where it is used in a non-24-hour sense.In Dan 8:26, "many days" is used as a metaphor for a long period of time, so "day" is probably used in a figurative sense here. But there are only four verses in the entire OT which have "day," "evening," and "morning." Your sample size is too small to make a firm rule.

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Find me an instance where YOM is used with a number to refer to a long period of time.

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Again, I will not try to find you an instance where "yom" refers to "a long period of time," but where it is used in a non-24-hour sense.I already referred you to Zech 14:7, which seems in context to refer to an extended period, "the Day of the Lord."Another passage is Hos 6:2, where "day" seems to be figurative and is rendered as such by NET: As NET explains in the translator's note: Most commentators likewise see the "two days" and "third day" here as figurative, metaphors for "a short time." This includes Expositors Bible Commentary, NIV Commentary, Bible Knowledge Commentary, JFB Commentary, etc.

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I know YOM is Hebrew. It means "day". I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here.

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You had insisted in your "rule" that a "number precedes YOM." I was simply trying to point out the sloppiness and changing definitions of your rules.In the Hebrew Bible, numbers do NOT precede "yom." Numbers come AFTER "yom," not BEFORE "yom."Grammatical rules must be stated very clearly and precisely and carefully if they are to have any value as rules. Your rules are very imprecisely worded, and they change every time you state them. Hence they are not very useful to you or to anyone else.

It looks like you've found some overly-dogmatic YEC quotes regarding Hebrew. Hasel has some accurate commentary on the Hebrew grammar, but he also has some claims that do not logically follow. ("Day" in Gen 2:4 being non-literal forces "day" in Gen 1 to be literal??) And his conclusion is much too dogmatic. Many Hebrew scholars argue that "yom" (and even the entire chapter of Genesis 1) should be taken as figurative. Hasel mentions the views of a number of such scholars in his article, in his discussion of the literary genre of Genesis 1. (Did you read this section from his article? It's pretty good.) Again, the ICR claims are much too dogmatic. I guess the author never read Dan 8:26, Hos 6:2, or Zech 14:7??Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

i seriously cant believe you'd be asking this after i've mentioned it throughout this whole thread.Im not going to explain it again, if you want to know the explaination for why it refers to an unspecified length of time, read back.Otherwise, here is a definition of the hebrew word showing exactly how the word can be used if you want it to mean 24 hours, then go for it...close your eyes. Im over it. The hebrew word is used throughout the bible in all the above ways...its not as simple as a set 24 hours no matter how much you try to claim that it is.

Find me an instance where YOM is used with a number to refer to a long period of time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zech 14:7 does not refer to a long period of time. Second, it does not contain "evening or morning". You're making a strawman here. About time you got to this one! But you're misunderstanding it. Its an idiom alright, but the the days represents a 24 hour period for each. If "day" meant a long period of time, it would contradict the prophecy.In other words, a comparison is being made between how long gods anger was to be/restorie Israel and a "day". The prophecy collapses if if "day" meant anything other than a 24 hour day.PS 18:2 The LORD is my rock... This is an idiom. God is not really a "rock', but unless you're using the terminlogy of what a rock really is, the verse makes no sense.Bottom line, "day" still means 24 hours.

ICR writes:
When ordinals or the phrase "evening and morning" are connected with yom, it always means a solar day. The context of the six days of creation account in Genesis 1 precludes any meaning of indefinite time. I guess you ignored their points. Not one of those examples follows what I, or that ICR has stated. You're creating strawmen. Dan states the plural, not singular. Hos is an idiom and Zech doesnt even use evening and morning.

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Hasel has some accurate commentary on the Hebrew grammar, but he also has some claims that do not logically follow. ("Day" in Gen 2:4 being non-literal forces "day" in Gen 1 to be literal??) And his conclusion is much too dogmatic. Many Hebrew scholars argue that "yom" (and even the entire chapter of Genesis 1) should be taken as figurative. Hasel mentions the views of a number of such scholars in his article, in his discussion of the literary genre of Genesis 1. (Did you read this section from his article? It's pretty good.)

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When I first quoted Hasel in Message 83 I said: Since the people who translated the various Bible versions into English rendered them (Genesis 1:5 and Genesis 2:4) differently there is obviously something in the Hebrew that indicated the difference to them. Since I'm not versed in Hebrew, I found this article by G.F. Hasel that explains the difference very well.Whether the story is fact, fiction, figurative, or vision is irrelevant to the usage of a word within the sentence. When someone says "when pigs fly" they are using the literal meaning of the word pig and the literal meaning of the word fly. The phrase itself is a figure of speech that indicates the thing is an impossibility. Don't confuse understanding what meaning of a word is used in a sentence with the overall purpose of the story. We can't understand the story or phrase until we understand the words. Since we know pigs can't fly on their own, the phrase is figurative.I'm concerned with the aspect of grammar, not necessarily his claims. He showed that there is a difference in the Hebrew words. We have the word "day", but when I put an "s" at the end, that makes it plural. If I add "in the" in front of day, that also changes the meaning.So using biblos.com here are the transliterations of the Hebrew word translated as "day". Genesis 1:5 (yovm,) translated "day" and (yovm) - translated "day" Genesis 1:14 (haiyovm) translated "day" and (uleyamim) translated "days" Genesis 2:4 (beyovm) - translated "in the day" Daniel 8:26 (leyamim) - translated "days" Hosea 6:2 (miyomayim) - translated days and (baiyovm) - Translated day Zechariah 14:7 (yovm-) translated day and (yovm) translated day Also take into consideration we have at least five different authors from various times. Each has his own style and language changes over time.If someone who knows Hebrew can explain the differences, I'm open.

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ICR writes:

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When ordinals or the phrase "evening and morning" are connected with yom, it always means a solar day. The context of the six days of creation account in Genesis 1 precludes any meaning of indefinite time.

Again, the ICR claims are much too dogmatic. I guess the author never read Dan 8:26, Hos 6:2, or Zech 14:7??

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I'm not sure what your point is. This is what I see working from the English translations.The words evening and morning in Daniel 8:26 are not connected to the word day, but the author is saying that it will be many days (solar days) before the vision comes about. IOW, it is a future event; but I don't see that the author was implying ages either.Hosea 6:2 is speaking of solar days, so again I don't understand your point.Zechariah 14:7 doesn't negate the meaning of a solar day. Echad functions as an indefinite article in this verse. The translations vary, but the author seems to be talking about a solar day in the future that will be unusual. Essentially he's saying that sometime in the future God will come to Jerusalem and when he does, such and such will happen. We just don't know what the date is of that solar day. When God arrives, that's the day. It isn't saying that the day is longer than a normal solar day, it is saying the specific solar day is unknown.Genesis is speaking of the past and Zechariah is speaking of the future. When parents tell their children, "One day you will understand"; they're saying that sometime in the future you will understand. They don't know the date of the solar day that understanding will hit us.Genesis 1:5 isn't speaking of the future. The narrator said there was morning and there was evening the first day. The author is referring to a solar day. There is nothing in the sentence to indicate anything longer than a solar day. If you feel there is, please point it out in Genesis 1:5; not some other sentence.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion