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Author Topic:   Two wrongs don't make a right (the (ir)rationality of revenge) - also gun control
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 196 of 452 (521841)
08-29-2009 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Legend
08-29-2009 2:07 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
what's that got to do with my right to defend myself in my own home with a gun?
Do you know, off the top of your head, the stopping distance of your car at 70mph? No? Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car?
What is your point here?
Guns are designed to kill people. They are highly likely do that in either capable or incapable hands (more likely to inflict harm on unintended victims in the hands of the incapable). That is, after all, the purpose of the gun.
Cars are designed to transport people. Unless in the hands of a maniac cars are not generally used to intentionally kill people.
Frankly Britain is a safer place without people like you (or for that matter me) wielding guns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 2:07 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 4:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 197 of 452 (521845)
08-29-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2009 12:20 PM


Re: Strawman
Vehicles are statistically far more deadly than firearms. Should we suppose that since none of us have died in car accidents that we should stop obeying traffic laws and stop wearing seatbelts?
Are you just using the simple gross total count of deaths per year?
Perhaps a better measure would be by operator minute. Divide car deaths by driver-minutes and gun deaths by minutes had loaded and within easy moments reach of the trigger-pulling hand.
I dunno...just thinking that "statistically" can be just about anything.
No to your other question.

- xongsmith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 12:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 198 of 452 (521849)
08-29-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Legend
08-29-2009 2:07 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
what's that got to do with my right to defend myself in my own home with a gun?
Do you know, off the top of your head, the stopping distance of your car at 70mph? No? Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car?
I know from experience how long it takes my car to stop. I know how to safely operate it. I use it everyday so I am very familiar with it.
If you tried to protect yourself and your family in your home you very well might hurt yourself or them if you do not have proper training and experience.
Any idea how far a bullet can travel. What happens if you shoot a handgun at a supposed intruder and it misses and the bullet goes through a wall? Or through a window? Do you know where that bullet will stop?
If you were going to have a weapon for home defense a handgun is probably the worst choice, but it is the one a lot of people choose because it is "cool". Most people are more likely to shoot themselves, a family member, or someone they know than they are an intruder.
When was the last time you had an intruder? When would you shoot if you had intruder? As soon as you see them? Will you wait to identify them as someone you don't know? Will you think about what is behind them if you miss? How many shots will you take?
These questions have everything to do with defending yourself with a gun. I support gun regulations in no small part in order to keep handguns and assault weapons out of the hands of idiots. I am not saying you are an idiot, but you are sure starting to sound a lot like idiots I know.
Do you truly think it is as easy as just having the gun?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 2:07 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 6:50 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 199 of 452 (521850)
08-29-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Straggler
08-29-2009 3:24 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Legend writes:
Do you know, off the top of your head, the stopping distance of your car at 70mph? No? Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car?
Straggler writes:
What is your point here?
My point is: Theodoric is trying to imply that the fact that I may not be fully aware of what calibre or type of weapon I require somehow invalidates my right to own one for self-defense. I'm saying that this is equivalent to preventing someone from potentially owning a car if they don't know what type of car or engine size they need so that they can travel from A to B.
Legend writes:
Guns are designed to kill people. They are highly likely do that in either capable or incapable hands (more likely to inflict harm on unintended victims in the hands of the incapable).
Guns are designed to propel small chunks of metal around at high velocity.
Cars are designed to propel large chunks of metal around at high velocity.
Both kill people just as effectively, in the wrong hands. Cars -like guns- are just tools an can be used for either good and evil depending on the people who use them.
Straggler writes:
Unless in the hands of a maniac cars are not generally used to intentionally kill people.
Unless in the hands of a maniac, police or the armed forces guns are not generally used to intentionally kill people either.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 3:24 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 4:55 PM Legend has replied
 Message 205 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 7:13 PM Legend has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 200 of 452 (521851)
08-29-2009 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Legend
08-29-2009 4:51 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Unless in the hands of a maniac cars are not generally used to intentionally kill people.
Unless in the hands of a maniac, police or the armed forces guns are not generally used to intentionally kill people either.
Well what is the purpose of a gun then?
If you want a gun but aren't worried about the ability to kill people why don't you just get yourself a blank shooting replica?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 4:51 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by themasterdebator, posted 08-29-2009 5:33 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 217 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 11:23 AM Straggler has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 201 of 452 (521852)
08-29-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Legend
08-29-2009 1:47 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
The people who obeyed the law were those who desperately needed a gun at that time. They paid the price with their lives.
In my opinion you do not have it right.
The people who obeyed the law were those who desperately needed, in approximate order, the following things before they needed a gun:
1. Early infant development counseling, with an emphasis of treating babies at risk - with Cho's parents and the infant Cho - to direct his upbringing away from such a broken mind.
- ok, that wasnt available & no one has a time machine.
2. Childhood psychology visits to correct the absence of 1.
3. Teenage psychology visits to correct the absence of 2.
4. College screening for detection of instability in Cho's mind, to correct the absences of 1, 2 and 3.
5. Proper attention to the screams of help he was leaving around him before the incident, to correct the absence of 1-4.
6. Beefier gun detection at the school grounds to prevent their entry.
7. More police on campus to respond quickly.
8. Perhaps an armed floor guard on every floor.
9. Maybe here, in the unfortunate face of failure on everything before, a designated student protector in each class.
...there may be others I left out and would put in if I think a little more about it, but you get the idea, dont you?.....
Lastly, 10. Allowing untrained students to conceal & bring in weapons, at which point we have long left the civilized world and have reduced the education environment to the wild west.
So, frankly, your solution is nothing short of promoting the destruction of civilization. Sorry. I cannot support that.
Step 1. would have been the cheapest solution. Remember, guns dont kill people - people kill people.
Steps 2 and 3. are getting more and more expensive. Step 4 is probably impractical and is an invasion of privacy in a free civilized world. Step 5 is certainly something we can address more effectively than what is going on now. Steps 6 through 9 are about giving up freedom for security. 10 is the end of civilization.

- xongsmith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 1:47 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 11:39 AM xongsmith has replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 452 (521857)
08-29-2009 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Straggler
08-29-2009 4:55 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Well what is the purpose of a gun then?
If you want a gun but aren't worried about the ability to kill people why don't you just get yourself a blank shooting replica?
Animals? If a wild hog is in my yard, a gun is about the only way for me to safely(and I use this term relatively) handle it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 4:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2009 6:36 AM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 452 (521858)
08-29-2009 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by onifre
08-29-2009 1:44 PM


Re: Strawman
People drive everyday, all day, 24 hours, just about every single adult does in the US. Gun ownership and usage pale in comparison to the amount of cars used.
You're missing the point. What you were alluding to was that since Legend most likely has never been the victim of gun violence, he therefore has no use for a gun. I'm pointing out how that is faulty reasoning.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by onifre, posted 08-29-2009 1:44 PM onifre has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 452 (521860)
08-29-2009 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Theodoric
08-29-2009 4:50 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
I know from experience how long it takes my car to stop. I know how to safely operate it. I use it everyday so I am very familiar with it.
And likewise, Legend, if legally allowed, could familiarize himself with firearms. You didn't become an expert driver intrinsically. It had to be taught, just like everything else.
If you tried to protect yourself and your family in your home you very well might hurt yourself or them if you do not have proper training and experience.
So forsake everything because he might hurt himself, I suppose far worse than an intruder would inflict?
Any idea how far a bullet can travel.
Different speeds depending on the caliber.
What happens if you shoot a handgun at a supposed intruder and it misses and the bullet goes through a wall? Or through a window? Do you know where that bullet will stop?
Or how about the intruder shoots you through the head, which travels through a window and kills your neighbors cat? Your reasoning against citizen ownership of guns is silly at best and impractical at worst.
If you were going to have a weapon for home defense a handgun is probably the worst choice, but it is the one a lot of people choose because it is "cool". Most people are more likely to shoot themselves, a family member, or someone they know than they are an intruder.
Why is a handgun a bad choice for home defense?
When was the last time you had an intruder?
A few years ago.
When would you shoot if you had intruder?
Everything would be based on the subjects actions. Whether they have a weapon, the opportunity to utilize it, if they are within maximum effective range, and if they have unrestricted access to use it.
Basically, deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know has a substantial risk of causing death or grievous bodily injury. Its use is justified under conditions of extreme necessity when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed.
Do you truly think it is as easy as just having the gun?
It's not rocket-science, really. You are over-complicating things. There are four basic principles for handling a weapon safely. If you heed the rules, you can't go wrong.
1. Keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction at all times.
2. Keep your finger outside the trigger guard until the decision to shoot has been made.
3. Only point the weapon towards something you intend to shoot, being mindful of your background and surroundings.
4. Keep the weapon on safe until the decision to shoot has been made.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2009 4:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2009 7:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 452 (521861)
08-29-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Legend
08-29-2009 4:51 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
My point is: Theodoric is trying to imply that the fact that I may not be fully aware of what calibre or type of weapon I require somehow invalidates my right to own one for self-defense. I'm saying that this is equivalent to preventing someone from potentially owning a car if they don't know what type of car or engine size they need so that they can travel from A to B.
Not only that but the very law prevents you in the first place from ever gaining the expertise you desire. Theo here invalidates it a priori and then uses circular logic to establish his point.
The bottom line is that these laws only negatively effect law-abiding citizens, as it has already been established that criminals by definition don't adhere to laws. At most it is a minor inconvenience for them, but to the law-abiding citizen it could mean the difference between life or death.
So what if you never had to use the weapon to defend yourself? Does that somehow invalidate its purpose? Some people have never seen their airbags deploy, so does that invalidate its purpose? It's like an insurance policy. You hope you never have to use it, but should the time ever come that you need it, its purpose becomes invaluable.
The optimal situation is never having to use a gun in a self-defense situation. Likewise, the optimal situation is never having to use your airbags or seatbelt in a car accident. It sure is good to know that if you need all three, that you have access to them.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 4:51 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 12:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 206 of 452 (521862)
08-29-2009 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2009 6:50 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
And likewise, Legend, if legally allowed, could familiarize himself with firearms. You didn't become an expert driver intrinsically. It had to be taught, just like everything else.
Bullshit. People use cars everyday. The vast majority of gunowners rarely if EVER use their guns. There is no comparison on the issues. Yes I have driven almost every day for many years. I will never sue a gun every day. Driving is second nature and an almost reflexive act. Guns are not ever going to become that for people. So the driving gun shooting comparison is complete bullshit.
Again. You claim to be a professional. The average person does not think of these things or even acknowledge that these things need to be taken into account.
Handguns are a bad choice because they require a fair amount of expertise, they have one use, the bullet will penetrate walls and can hurt or kill people in your family or people outside of the house.
A shortbarelled shot gun is a much better choice. Requires less expertise, can be used as a club and with the right load will not penetrate walls. A 12 gauge shot with birdshot will incapacitate anyone inside the confines of a house. Also, with a shotgun you can quickly change your load to buckshot if needed. A handgun gives you one option.
Or how about the intruder shoots you through the head, which travels through a window and kills your neighbors cat? Your reasoning against citizen ownership of guns is silly at best and impractical at worst.
We don't care about the intruder. They are intent on murder and mayhem anyway aren't they.
I find it amazing that a person that touts themselves as a professional has no concerns of where the slug ends up. Where the slug ends up is the most important point about the whole discussion.
A vast majority of the people wanting to pull a gun on an intruder have never considered the consequences of a missed shot.
All of your answers are the answers of a person who has thought through the situation and is at least a psuedoprofessional. The average moron has not thought through any of it.
Your reasoning against citizen ownership of guns is silly at best and impractical at worst.
Again you are misstating everything I have said. I have never, ever said anything to this affect on this board or anywhere. I think guns should be highly regulated. As in registration for all handguns and assault weapons. I have no problems with centerfire rifles that ahve a sporting purpose, shotguns and rimfire rifles. No need to register them.
Also, I think most of the damn fools out there are more likely to shoot themselves or a family member with a handgun than they will with a shotgun.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 6:50 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 9:00 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 452 (521864)
08-29-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by onifre
08-27-2009 6:25 PM


Re: Rant
Onifre, I believe the middle east has shown us the effectiveness of simple weapons in guerrilla warfare situations. Heavy armaments take allot of time and money to use and are very unwieldy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by onifre, posted 08-27-2009 6:25 PM onifre has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 452 (521869)
08-29-2009 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Theodoric
08-29-2009 7:20 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
People use cars everyday. The vast majority of gunowners rarely if EVER use their guns.
You're still missing the point. You had to be taught and had to practice in order to drive well. You didn't have some intrinsic ability the first time you drove. Likewise, you can train with firearms. The way you make it sound is though if you don't fire a weapon every day of your life, you'll some how shoot yourself accidentally. That's absurd and reduces average people to imbeciles.
You claim to be a professional. The average person does not think of these things or even acknowledge that these things need to be taken into account.
The average person won't point guns to their head either and squeeze the trigger because they're so stupid they don't know any better. And if by chance they honestly don't know any better, maybe its best that nature weeded those individuals out of the gene pool.
Handguns are a bad choice because they require a fair amount of expertise, they have one use, the bullet will penetrate walls and can hurt or kill people in your family or people outside of the house. A shortbarelled shot gun is a much better choice. Requires less expertise, can be used as a club and with the right load will not penetrate walls. A 12 gauge shot with birdshot will incapacitate anyone inside the confines of a house.
The further distance you are away from the target you are firing from with a shotgun, the more the cone of buckshot spreads, further increasing the chances of someone crossing the line of fire. I think shotguns are great, but I'm just wondering why you think they're so vastly better than handguns.
Also, with a shotgun you can quickly change your load to buckshot if needed. A handgun gives you one option.
That's not even remotely accurate. A semi-automatic pistol typically holds anywhere between 8-12 rounds in each magazine, with extra magazines at the ready fully loaded. A shotgun has half the amount of rounds and has to be chambered manually one at a time.
quote:
Or how about the intruder shoots you through the head, which travels through a window and kills your neighbors cat? Your reasoning against citizen ownership of guns is silly at best and impractical at worst.
We don't care about the intruder. They are intent on murder and mayhem anyway aren't they.
Read what you quoted me saying again.
I find it amazing that a person that touts themselves as a professional has no concerns of where the slug ends up. Where the slug ends up is the most important point about the whole discussion.
First of all, I never referred to myself as a "professional," but I suppose that by legal definition, I qualify. I just said that part of my job is to carry firearms. Secondly, when did I say that I don't care where a slug ends up?
I'm the one kneeling furthest to the left (as it is viewed from the computer) holding the M16, not the shotgun.... the devilishly handsome one
http://photos-e-5.ak.fbcdn.net/...44880_527316_8267200_n.jpg
A vast majority of the people wanting to pull a gun on an intruder have never considered the consequences of a missed shot.
So your solution is allow the intruder to kill you because you might miss shooting him and instead kill little Timmy crossing the street??? And what if your coveted criminal is as bad of a shot as you are?
How is this a defense for gun control?
All of your answers are the answers of a person who has thought through the situation and is at least a psuedoprofessional. The average moron has not thought through any of it.
Theo, they put braindead morons behind the wheels of vehicles weighing several metric tons. What you are describing is not an argument for pro gun control as it is so easily refuted by virtue of equivocation.
Again you are misstating everything I have said. I have never, ever said anything to this affect on this board or anywhere. I think guns should be highly regulated. As in registration for all handguns and assault weapons. I have no problems with centerfire rifles that ahve a sporting purpose, shotguns and rimfire rifles. No need to register them.
Well, then I guess I'm more of a gun control advocate than you. I think all firearms should be registered. I think a criminal background check should be mandatory. Those are actually already laws, so I would add that a national database for the mentally ill and mentally unstable be added to the list.
Also, I think most of the damn fools out there are more likely to shoot themselves or a family member with a handgun than they will with a shotgun.
Why is that?

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2009 7:20 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by bluescat48, posted 08-29-2009 10:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 214 by xongsmith, posted 08-30-2009 11:04 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 209 of 452 (521872)
08-29-2009 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2009 9:00 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Well, then I guess I'm more of a gun control advocate than you. I think all firearms should be registered. I think a criminal background check should be mandatory. Those are actually already laws, so I would add that a national database for the mentally ill and mentally unstable be added to the list.
I totally agree. I have no inkling to remove guns from citizens, but I agree with registration & background checks. Having spent a number of years in the military (26), I have fired a number of weapons for which I and the other soldiers had to learn the fundimentals of each particular type of weapon, before we could actually fire it either on a range or in combat.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 9:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 210 of 452 (521877)
08-30-2009 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by themasterdebator
08-29-2009 5:33 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Animals? If a wild hog is in my yard, a gun is about the only way for me to safely(and I use this term relatively) handle it.
My question was aimed at Legend. He lives in Wales. In the UK.
The last time I was in Wales wild hogs, bears, lions and other such dangers were not a particularly significant concern.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by themasterdebator, posted 08-29-2009 5:33 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
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