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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 406 of 560 (875770)
05-05-2020 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by GDR
05-04-2020 7:03 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
So we can put to rest your claim that "The Bible is evidence for Christianity." And your claim that it is somehow different from The Lord of the Rings.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by GDR, posted 05-04-2020 7:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 5:50 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 407 of 560 (875771)
05-05-2020 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ringo
05-05-2020 5:24 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
You can if you like. I don't. Each book in the bible has to be understood within its own genre, culture and time.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 05-05-2020 5:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 05-05-2020 6:21 PM GDR has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 408 of 560 (875772)
05-05-2020 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by GDR
05-05-2020 5:50 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
GDR writes:
Each book in the bible has to be understood within its own genre, culture and time.
So not "obviously" intended as non- fiction.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 5:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 6:57 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 409 of 560 (875773)
05-05-2020 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ringo
05-05-2020 6:21 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
How do you want to define fiction. Is the parable of the Good Samaritan fiction. I mentioned earlier that the book of Job reads like a play to be performed. In both cases they aren't to be understood as factually true but they are written to project a more basic truth or message.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 05-05-2020 6:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 05-06-2020 11:18 AM GDR has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 410 of 560 (875791)
05-06-2020 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by GDR
05-05-2020 6:57 PM


Re: no rational argument ?
GDR writes:
Is the parable of the Good Samaritan fiction.
All parables are fiction. The events are "real" - i.e they have happened in real life - but the story is clearly intended to teach a lesson, not to convey facts.
GDR writes:
In both cases they aren't to be understood as factually true but they are written to project a more basic truth or message.
That's what I said. Many parts of the Bible were't even intended to be taken as truth, so it isn't "obvious" that they were.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 6:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 3:10 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 411 of 560 (875796)
05-06-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
05-06-2020 11:18 AM


Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:
All parables are fiction. The events are "real" - i.e they have happened in real life - but the story is clearly intended to teach a lesson, not to convey facts.
OK, so then if a parable is fiction then we are agreed that the Bible does contain fiction.
ringo writes:
That's what I said. Many parts of the Bible were't even intended to be taken as truth, so it isn't "obvious" that they were.
Just because the Bibl;e contains metaphors and parables that we are going to label as fiction, (I still don't agree that they are fiction but we do have an agreed upon understanding), then it doesn't mean that we are to consider then that it is all fiction without any of it being historical. The Bible again is a library of books with no doubt hundreds of people having input into the the Bible that we have today.
This being the case we have to look at what is written in context of the whole Biblical narrative, the culture at the time, and the results of what is written.
With all of that criteria in mind it is clear that the Biblical accounts of the resurrection are intended to be taken as historical.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 05-06-2020 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by jar, posted 05-06-2020 3:53 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 414 by ringo, posted 05-06-2020 6:07 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 412 of 560 (875799)
05-06-2020 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by GDR
05-06-2020 3:10 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
With all of that criteria in mind it is clear that the Biblical accounts of the resurrection are intended to be taken as historical.
Well no, it most certainly is not clear that they were historical rather than folk tales. Did the authors believe that what they were writing somewhat kinda sorta nearly probably possibly described what they thought kinda sorta nearly probably possibly did happen? Very likely BUT as the story got retold each author embellished it with details that kinda sorta nearly probably possibly might have happened.
That is also true of Saul's conversion and the Great Commission and other parts of the New Testament as well.
Are parts of the Bible true? Certainly, but also colored and embellished and polished and edited and revised to fit a narrative that might have had absolutely nothing to do with reality as seen by the original authors.
All of the important parts, that Jesus even existed, that Jesus died as described, that the resurrection happened, that the ascension happened are things that Christians accept based on faith and belief and certainly not on facts, evidence or history.
We can look at the teachings and ask if they make sense as a way of life; as a morality but those are all things that we can decide and adopt or reject regardless of whether or not anything in the Bible is factual or historical.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 3:10 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by NosyNed, posted 05-06-2020 5:16 PM jar has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 413 of 560 (875806)
05-06-2020 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by jar
05-06-2020 3:53 PM


Intent
You are GDR are not talking about the same thing.
He says "are intended to be taken as historical"
You say "... not clear that they were historical..."
They may be completely unhistorical but still intended to have been.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by jar, posted 05-06-2020 3:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by jar, posted 05-07-2020 8:35 AM NosyNed has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 414 of 560 (875810)
05-06-2020 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by GDR
05-06-2020 3:10 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
it doesn't mean that we are to consider then that it is all fiction without any of it being historical.
I didn't say it was all fiction. You said basically that none of it is - i.e. that it's easily distinguishable from The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 3:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 6:38 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 415 of 560 (875812)
05-06-2020 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by ringo
05-06-2020 6:07 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:
I didn't say it was all fiction. You said basically that none of it is - i.e. that it's easily distinguishable from The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.
Quote from wiki page "Fiction" writes:
In contrast to fiction is its traditional opposite: non-fiction, in which the creator assumes responsibility for presenting only the historical and factual truth.
Rowling is a contemporary and Tolkien only died in 1973 and so we from the writers themselves we know that what they wrote was written and intended as fiction even if there was an underlying theme or message.
Luke however writes this at the beginning of his Gospel.
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke clearly "assumes responsibility for presenting only the historical and factual truth". Obviously then Luke's Gospel has to be considered non-fiction. That does not mean that everything or anything that he writes is accurate. However, even if there are small or gross factual errors it is still a work of non-fiction.
I have read a considerable amount on the historical aspects of the Gospel and I have come to the conclusion that what he has written is essentially accurate. I know others like yourself reject that belief however I haven't come to that conclusion without research.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by ringo, posted 05-06-2020 6:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 05-06-2020 6:53 PM GDR has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 416 of 560 (875813)
05-06-2020 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by GDR
05-06-2020 6:38 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
Luke clearly "assumes responsibility for presenting only the historical and factual truth".
So does Holden Caulfield. When a fictional character makes a claim, that doesn't count as non-fiction.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 6:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 7:05 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 417 of 560 (875815)
05-06-2020 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by ringo
05-06-2020 6:53 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Whether or not the writer's name is Luke does not detract from the quote. However the Gospel has always been attributed to Luke, Paul's travelling companion, from the beginning including in the writings or Irenaeous.
Regardless the statement stands. The writer "assumes responsibility for presenting only the historical and factual truth".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 05-06-2020 6:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 05-07-2020 11:26 AM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 418 of 560 (875821)
05-07-2020 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by NosyNed
05-06-2020 5:16 PM


Re: Intent
But as I went on to say...
"Did the authors believe that what they were writing somewhat kinda sorta nearly probably possibly described what they thought kinda sorta nearly probably possibly did happen? Very likely BUT as the story got retold each author embellished it with details that kinda sorta nearly probably possibly might have happened."
The authors may well have believed and wanted to sell their writings as historical but that does not preclude those writings being total fiction.
Our President is a great example of just that syndrome.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by NosyNed, posted 05-06-2020 5:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 419 of 560 (875824)
05-07-2020 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by GDR
05-06-2020 7:05 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
Whether or not the writer's name is Luke does not detract from the quote.
We're not talking about the author. We're talking about the narrator.
Did he even exist? Like Ishmael in Moby Dick, we can not take the word of a fictional character as a given.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by GDR, posted 05-06-2020 7:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 3:16 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 420 of 560 (875830)
05-07-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by ringo
05-07-2020 11:26 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:
We're not talking about the author. We're talking about the narrator.
Did he even exist? Like Ishmael in Moby Dick, we can not take the word of a fictional character as a given.
Moby Dick was written as fiction. That was the authors intent. Luke, and it probably was Luke the physician who traveled with Paul, who compiled the Gospel from sources such as Mark, Paul, possibly Q, and other eye witnesses. Irenaeus confirms that it was written by Luke fairly early on. He also confirms that John was written by the apostle. Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp who spent time with John. There are the parts of Acts where Luke uses the term "we" in reference to the story of Paul.
So, there is good evidence though not conclusive that Luke wrote that Gospel.
I agree that it is something of a narration as it is a something of a biography, that is made very clear at the beginning that it is intended to be historical, regardless of who wrote it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 05-07-2020 11:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by ringo, posted 05-07-2020 3:36 PM GDR has replied

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