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Author | Topic: Of Snarks and Dogpiles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Itinerant Lurker Member (Idle past 2678 days) Posts: 67 Joined: |
This is a pretty common practice on such sites. I can't remember all the sites I've been banned from but a cursory list includes:
EvolutionaryFairytale (seriously though, who hasn't been from this one?)
Worthy Christian Forums: Faith vs. Science That was a fun one, and one of my longest running stints. Slowly, however, they restricted my account from not linking to "evolution websites", to not linking to anything, to not teaching anything, to nothing at all. The straw that apparently broke the camel's back was a thread on genetic markers. I rant about it here, where I also documented my back and forth with moderators. As an aside, on Christian sites you're going to run into a LOT of moderators who also participate in discussions and fail to differentiate their roles.
ChristianChat Here it wasn't the issue of evolution that did me in as much as my contention that quoting the bible at Atheists wasn't a good evangelism tool. Most recently, there's Talk Jesus who didn't appear to like having some things pointed out to them about slavery and the bible. It's interesting to note that on all those (and others), except for the last one I was posting as a theistic evolutionist, not an agnostic. A couple of forums that have managed to tolerate me are:
BibleForums.org and
OurChristianForum.org Lurker Edited by Itinerant Lurker, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I haven't been to too many other sites, mostly because I find this one takes enough of my time and energy.
Of the others I've been to, one I am banned from (and then dissed and insulted) for arguing for an old earth, and another has just closed doors. I think one of the reasons that this forum is so good is that Percy is a deist, and he is tolerant of atheist and theist views, not having an axe to grind in either camp. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : campby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4251 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined:
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Tangle writes: It's something I'm occasionally guilty of - it's good fun afterall. I agree especial with the brits.
But, for a bit of a change, I joined a YEC forum last weekend and tried to have a civilised debate. I was immediately dogpiled in 4 forums (my naivety, I will stick to a comment in one only next time.) I was fresh meat, an atheist thrown to the Christians. This sounds strangely familar. If you want some real fun go to evcforum.net, and don't be liberal or a scientist, you will get dogpiled, and ridiculed almost immediately.
The next two days were rather hectic as I tried to give direct answers to increasingly aggressive questions. I had to fend off demands for evidence for every single, non-controversial (in the world of normal) assertion. They were almost uniformly anal about logical fallacies, calling them at every opportunity in pompous ways and wielding them like clever weapons. yeah that sounds about right. you also have to remember that after answering most of the question on the first 5 pages some slacker always shows up about page 8 or 9 and re-asks things that you have already addressed, and then the same dogpile starts again.
A good number of them had been practicising attack questions for some years and weren't totally ignorant of their enemy. I feel the same way around here, it all seems like canned responses. a ton of try-hards as well
Tangle writes: It appeared I had been banned without warning. Here is where the difference begins. Liberals don't ban that much, they actually have the best message boards on the internet, they will call you names, and make fun of you, but you wont get banned.
It was a fairly unpleasant experience and my reason for bringing it up is that we seem to do something similar here quite often. I can now see from the other side of it that there's actually absolutely no chance of making any progress at all in that kind of feeding frenzy. I disagree. This site is run very well and is generally very fair. I give them shit all the time, but they are "in all honesty" not like you are describing AT ALL.
There must be room for statements of opinion and comment and genuine questioning without the necessity to back every assertion with multiple references and there's no making progress in a discussion where both sides are not really debating honestly, just throwing hand grenades around and showing off to their own side. I don't know man, I think this place is fine, sure its full of crazy people, but its really just a couple posters. and you can ignore a couple of them, I am sure many ignore me (well they hit the negative button and dont engage). I mean this is the internetz, honest debates belong in school or sumthin. you realize you are on the site of Semantic Pedantics, right?
One big difference between here and there, is that this forum has some excellent moderation which is applied reasonably and objectively, some good tools and rules for moderators to use, a lot of tolerance and different kinds of fora using specific rules of evidence. This keeps control of most debates, doesn't let them get out of hand and moderators do not arbtrarily ban people. Agreed, I just wish there was an ignore option for the people I really can't stand (most people from MN or WI).
Catholic Scientist writes: That being said, I've been banned from multiple Christian forums for waaay less than the least of what goes on around here. Simply not towing the line can get you banned. the best is when they ask you to leave because you are making them sound retarded. Christian (even Catholic) websites are the worst on the internet (worse than stormfront). Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Artemis writes: If you want some real fun go to evcforum.net, and don't be liberal or a scientist, you will get dogpiled, and ridiculed almost immediately This is my only concern - our behaviour. The moderators here are brilliant at their roles and the tools they have to do enforce the rules are excellent too. But it takes some kind of masochist to walk into the enemy camp and start preaching. Good to hear that it doesn't chase everyone off.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4251 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
oh I aint preaching I am just disagreeing. More like civil disobedience rather than revolution.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Here is where the difference begins. Liberals don't ban that much, they actually have the best message boards on the internet, they will call you names, and make fun of you, but you wont get banned. That's because it's fun to do. The internet is the only place nerds can be the bullies. I don't blame them, conservatives/republicans make it sooo easy, man. They say the craziest shit. I personally want the republicans to win, mostly Romney. Business is better for me when that's the case. - Oni
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4251 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
business is WAY better for me, Obama caused many layoffs, my problem is conscience which will not allow me to vote for either douchebag.
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Taq Member Posts: 10045 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Snark has always been a weapon for those giving voice to unpopular speech. Voltaire, George Carlin, and Bill Hicks (nod to onifre) come to mind. It is thought that by demonstrating how ridiculous something is those who actually hold those positions will understand just how ridiculous they are. It is made all the funnier because they don't understand just how ridiculous it is. For instance, this bit of snark from Carlin:
quote: It's a classic, and one that I rather enjoy. This is really how many atheists view christianity, IMHO. Yes, you could remove all of the snark and lay out a more constructive criticism of christianity, but the Carlin quote is so much better.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Snark has always been a weapon for those giving voice to unpopular speech. Voltaire, George Carlin, and Bill Hicks (nod to onifre) come to mind. Good picks, especially that last guy. I've been enjoying the unpopular speech coming from the right lately, too. As a comic. Most recent, Rush and his "slut" comment. The reactions, while I know they're sincere, are hilarious. People really get pissed. They want apologies and "action" to be taken. All for words! On someone's show who has that show because he says those things. The one's that hate him give him the power he has. It's beautiful. And I admire it. He's a great entertainer. The right is winning the shock value in the press and media. The left used to be the edgy side, with Hicks and Carlin. But now the "shock" is coming from the right, even if mocked by the left by Stewart or Colbert. I see it in the clubs now. You do a bit about religion or republicans, it's not that shocking. Most of the audience actually agrees. And in many cases, it becomes repetative material that's already been done. Carlin, Hicks, and Stewart have covered those subjects to death. But, when a funny conservative gets up there and says harsh stuff about Obama or gay marriage or a lesbian judge, the moans and the "Did he just say that?" start. They're shocked. And people talk about it. And it's very entertaining to me. There's a new shift coming. - Oni
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Taq Member Posts: 10045 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I've been enjoying the unpopular speech coming from the right lately, too. As a comic. Most recent, Rush and his "slut" comment. The reactions, while I know they're sincere, are hilarious. People really get pissed. They want apologies and "action" to be taken. All for words! On someone's show who has that show because he says those things. The one's that hate him give him the power he has. It's beautiful. And I admire it. He's a great entertainer. It does raise the question of how well comedy works if it conflicts with your biases. Like you, I do have an appreciation for what Rush has been able to do. He plays the heel, and it brings in the big bucks. What I don't get is how it is supposed to be comedic or anything approaching social commentary. It's just someone being an asshole for asshole's sake. But again, is this because I disagree with his position? Would someone else view Carlin's work in the same way I view Rush's work? Perhaps. What frightens me is that many people don't understand Rush (or Glen Beck for that matter) for what he is. Reminds me of people who still think that professional wrestling is "real". At the same time, Colbert is hilarious. Sacha Cohen Baron? Freaking hilarious. It's even better when people don't get the joke which happened quite a bit on his Alli G show. I still think that Ann Coulter is pulling an Alli G on everyone. How can anyone say the shit she does and seriously believe it? Does Ann laugh herself to sleep thinking of all the right-wingers that take her seriously?
But, when a funny conservative gets up there and says harsh stuff about Obama or gay marriage or a lesbian judge, the moans and the "Did he just say that?" start. They're shocked. And people talk about it. And it's very entertaining to me. There's a new shift coming. Let's just hope that they are as talented as the comedians that have come before them.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The right is winning the shock value in the press and media. The left used to be the edgy side, with Hicks and Carlin. But now the "shock" is coming from the right, even if mocked by the left by Stewart or Colbert.
Perhaps since the left has become the establishment to be anti-establishment and counter one now has to attack from the right? Anyway, I found your comments on humor interesting.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
What I don't get is how it is supposed to be comedic or anything approaching social commentary. I wouldn't say Rush is supposed to be comedic, and there is a large society of people who agree so it's social commentary to them. I would guess.
It's just someone being an asshole for asshole's sake. But again, is this because I disagree with his position? Not for asshole's sake, for ratings sake. He goes as far as he can push the envelope until, like all of them, it goes too far. Then measures are taken, like with Maher during Politically Incorrect or Glenn Beck. Maher bounced back, so will Beck. I would say it's because you disagree with him. But you ARE his market. People who share your opinion draw the ratings.
It's even better when people don't get the joke
How can anyone say the shit she does and seriously believe it? Does Ann laugh herself to sleep thinking of all the right-wingers that take her seriously? I don't know. I don't know if any of them do. But then again I'm not surprised if they do believe those things since I know many people who share those opinions too.
Let's just hope that they are as talented as the comedians that have come before them. Like everything, some are, some are not. Youtube Nick Dipaolo, he's the best republican comic in my opinion. And it varies. There's a big alpha male shift going on in comedy now. It's the counter comedy to the hipster comedy and "slacker" comedy that's currently on TV (Comedy Central). The anti-nerd comics, as I call them. I guess I fall into that category, somewhat. Hell, Louis CK was being supported by conservatives for his views on this generation's shitty attitude about everything. He commented that he didn't write the bit from a conservative POV, but appreciate any media. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Perhaps since the left has become the establishment to be anti-establishment and counter one now has to attack from the right? Pretty much, I'd say that's about right. It's human nature, I think, when you hear the same opinion over and over again, eventually it gets boring. Someone being humorous from a new perspective is entertaining again. Honestly, and I love the writers and know some of them personally, I'm a little bored with John Stewart and the Daily Show. And really, most of the humor coming from that shared ideology. It's still creative and funny, but it's getting boring.
Anyway, I found your comments on humor interesting.
Thanks. - Oni
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Tangle writes: Percy has issued a warning to all participants in the macroevolution thread for snide remarks. It's something I'm occasionally guilty of - it's good fun afterall.But, for a bit of a change, I joined a YEC forum last weekend and tried to have a civilised debate. I was immediately dogpiled in 4 forums (my naivety, I will stick to a comment in one only next time.) I was fresh meat, an atheist thrown to the Christians. The next two days were rather hectic as I tried to give direct answers to increasingly aggressive questions. I had to fend off demands for evidence for every single, non-controversial (in the world of normal) assertion. They were almost uniformly anal about logical fallacies, calling them at every opportunity in pompous ways and wielding them like clever weapons. A good number of them had been practicising attack questions for some years and weren't totally ignorant of their enemy. Things got more interesting when 3 moderators joined the discussions - as participants, not moderators. Half way through a reply I suddenly found that I could no longer use the site. It appeared I had been banned without warning. It was a fairly unpleasant experience and my reason for bringing it up is that we seem to do something similar here quite often. I can now see from the other side of it that there's actually absolutely no chance of making any progress at all in that kind of feeding frenzy. There must be room for statements of opinion and comment and genuine questioning without the necessity to back every assertion with multiple references and there's no making progress in a discussion where both sides are not really debating honestly, just throwing hand grenades around and showing off to their own side. One big difference between here and there, is that this forum has some excellent moderation which is applied reasonably and objectively, some good tools and rules for moderators to use, a lot of tolerance and different kinds of fora using specific rules of evidence. This keeps control of most debates, doesn't let them get out of hand and moderators do not arbtrarily ban people. Anyhoo, just thought I'd share the experience. Now isn't this interesting! Thanks Tangle, for demonstrating how it is with effective opposing minority opponents in debate forums. Percy's response: "No links?" Tangle: " I'd rather not........it too embarrassing." Now be honest, Tangle. Is that really the reason for no supportive links, or is it that you can't fully support your allegations? No Percy response, insisting on supporting links. Tangle, so far the the thread messages are hypocritical, in that you people have just demonstrated why one like me must be thick skinned to endure debating a dog-piling pack of opponents, flanked by unbalanced moderation. I've been twice, after aggressive and effective debating on behalf of creationism permanently banned, having zero suspensions. No matter how much evidence I cited in the Exodus threads, the pack alleges that I've cited zero evidence. Admin jumps in on their behalf, debating and demanding my every move. Finally, for months, now, I have been banned from most of the active forums. These are in the science fora, including some major Biblical ones. I've been given an unprecedented assignment of doing a thread on the nature of scientific evidences, before the possibility the ban being lifted. Admin, et al, have already alleged, that there is no scientific evidence supportive of ID Biblical creationism, nor are there any bonafide scientists doing bonafide ID science, etc. Edited by Buzsaw, : remove wordBUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3985 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Coyote writes: Perhaps since the left has become the establishment... Now that's funny."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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