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Author Topic:   German judge rules child circumcision as child abuse.
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(3)
Message 196 of 410 (666935)
07-01-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by onifre
07-01-2012 12:31 PM


Re: Banned?
Who needs another benefit after that one?
The. Ladies. Love. It - end of discussion.
Yea! Thats why I support voluntary body modifications by consenting adults.
Pierced, split, circed, whatever. Boys now adays are not shy about taking metal to their dicks in an effort to please the ladies.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 197 of 410 (666936)
07-01-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Buzsaw
06-30-2012 9:51 PM


Re: Yada Responses
Divine revelation, since the eighth day would require nothing.
Or just some shaman noticed how old boys usually were when most of them survived the procedure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Buzsaw, posted 06-30-2012 9:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(6)
Message 198 of 410 (666937)
07-01-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jon
07-01-2012 9:50 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
This thread's discussion has to do with whether a parent should have the right to make medical decisions for their child.
Sure. And the legal principle at work is that parents have this right only when the decisions they make are in the best interest of their child. When a parent makes a medical decision to deny their child lifesaving care, or to reject evidence-based medicine for quackery, or submit their child to invasive surgery for nothing but cosmetic reasons, our society can and often does overrule the decision of the parent; parents have even lost custody of their children outright for making these decisions.
The question is whether parents are entitled to make bad medical decisions for their child, and the answer is "no." They're not so entitled. Children are not the property of their parents; they're individual citizens of our society and they're entitled to have society advocate for their interests, even when that advocacy might overrule a decision a parent has made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 9:50 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 1:46 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(5)
Message 199 of 410 (666938)
07-01-2012 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Jon
07-01-2012 10:36 AM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
It's about whether parents have the right.
And they don't. We allow parents to make decisions on behalf of their children when it's in the child's best interest for them to do so. We don't allow parents to decide things for their children because parents own children, or have an inherent right to make decisions for another human being just based on the accident of heredity.
Parental decisions are subject to an overriding "child's best interest" criterion. So the question is whether circumcision is in the child's interest; you've only ever tried to argue that it's in the parent's interest.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(4)
Message 200 of 410 (666939)
07-01-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
07-01-2012 12:22 PM


Re: Culture
jar writes:
Circumcision is the topic, but maybe you had not noticed.
Maybe not. Maybe I posted a lengthy paper about it by sheer coincidence.
jar writes:
Each specific behavior should be judged within the context of the specific State, culture or society.
The German court seems to have made a judgement within the context of modern Germany.
To me, one interesting thing about the paper I linked to was that so much of the pro-circumcision movement in both America and Europe over the last 200 years seems to have been motivated by a desire to interfere with genitals because of their natural sexual characteristics, but that this has always been expressed in health terms. It's remarkable how many diseases and conditions the poor foreskin has been blamed for!

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 Message 194 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 12:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jar, posted 07-01-2012 1:26 PM bluegenes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 201 of 410 (666940)
07-01-2012 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by bluegenes
07-01-2012 12:58 PM


Re: Culture
But fortunately I do not live within the context of the German State, culture or society. I do find the German ruling pitiful, but as I say, I does not effect me and so it is none of my business. If the Germans are willing to accept it then that's fine for them.
And I doubt that you have seen me use any of those factors as justification.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 12:58 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 2:34 PM jar has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(3)
Message 202 of 410 (666941)
07-01-2012 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Jazzns
07-01-2012 12:13 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Jazzns says:
What about if a parent doesn't like how the dice rolled and wants to do FULL gender re-assignment?
Ah yes - wondering when that other thread might cross over to here.
Imagine in the not-too-distant future when infant brain scans can determine right away whether the individual will eventually elect to undergo the long & detailed & emotionally draining process of transgendering.
Wait! we can do it NOW when the individual will soon have no memory of being in the wrong body. The parents save the day!??
Does the parent have to right to "do what's in the best interest of the child" in this case?
Jazzns continues:
Do parents have NO limitations on what unnecessary surgery they can do to their child?
And I am sure everyone here in this would stipulate that there are limitations. It's just where we each choose to draw the line.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Jazzns, posted 07-01-2012 12:13 PM Jazzns has replied

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 410 (666942)
07-01-2012 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Jazzns
07-01-2012 12:11 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
In this thread, you have consistently chosen bad reasoning and ad-hominem over honest debate.
Is there anything else to say? The topic is nonsense. Anyone making a big deal out of it is just silly.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Jazzns, posted 07-01-2012 12:11 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Jazzns, posted 07-01-2012 4:22 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 204 of 410 (666943)
07-01-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by bluegenes
07-01-2012 12:03 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Circumcisors and the circumcision lobby are definitely on topic.
The circumcision lobby?
Stop being ridiculous.
If you have a point, make it.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by bluegenes, posted 07-01-2012 12:03 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 410 (666944)
07-01-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by crashfrog
07-01-2012 12:48 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
And the legal principle at work is that parents have this right only when the decisions they make are in the best interest of their child.
And parents have the right to determine whether circumcision is in the best interest of the child.
What is so hard to understand about this for you?
The question is whether parents are entitled to make bad medical decisions for their child, and the answer is "no."
Until you can demonstrate that circumcision is a 'bad' medical decision, then I'm afraid your point is completely lost.
Children are not the property of their parents; they're individual citizens of our society and they're entitled to have society advocate for their interests, even when that advocacy might overrule a decision a parent has made.
Then what is the point of having parents if their only role is to pass on society's agendas to their children?
Do parents have any meaningful right in determining how their children are raised?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by crashfrog, posted 07-01-2012 12:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2012 2:01 PM Jon has replied
 Message 209 by crashfrog, posted 07-01-2012 2:05 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(3)
Message 206 of 410 (666945)
07-01-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Jon
07-01-2012 1:40 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Jon writes:
If you have a point, make it.
If you didn't read or understand the paper, why did you reply to my post?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 207 of 410 (666946)
07-01-2012 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
07-01-2012 1:46 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
And parents have the right to determine whether circumcision is in the best interest of the child.
Do they also have the right to determine whether it's in the best interests of the child to flog him in order to drive out the demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 1:46 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 2:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 410 (666947)
07-01-2012 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Dr Adequate
07-01-2012 2:01 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
Do they also have the right to determine whether it's in the best interests of the child to flog him in order to drive out the demons?
Is flogging the topic here?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2012 2:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2012 2:24 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(3)
Message 209 of 410 (666948)
07-01-2012 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
07-01-2012 1:46 PM


Re: A history: the masturbation and fear of sexuality angle.
And parents have the right to determine whether circumcision is in the best interest of the child.
Not unilaterally. Society has a right to advocate in the child's interest as well.
Until you can demonstrate that circumcision is a 'bad' medical decision, then I'm afraid your point is completely lost.
It's been demonstrated. Medical professionals came right out on the record and stated that it was a bad medical decision. At such time as you'd like to respond to that argument, it awaits you.
Then what is the point of having parents if their only role is to pass on society's agendas to their children?
Seriously? I have to explain the concept of reproduction to an adult? You see, when a man and a woman love each other very much...
Do parents have any meaningful right in determining how their children are raised?
Absolutely! But that right is not unilateral; it's contingent on parents making decisions in the child's best interest. When parents make decisions that are not in the child's best interest, society may step in and overrule that decision. If a parent demonstrates a pattern of making those decisions, parental custody can be terminated outright.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 07-01-2012 1:46 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 210 of 410 (666949)
07-01-2012 2:22 PM


Wobobo
I think that the only reason this is controversial at all is that it's Jews who are doing it. They've been doing it a long time, it's part of a well-established religion, and the Jews have taken quite enough crap. Especially from the Germans.
Now, try this thought experiment. Suppose that circumcision had never been thought of before. Suppose a new cult called Woboboism arose yesterday, and made it one of their tenets that infant boys should be circumcised. Is there the chance of a snowball in hell on a hot day that one single person on these boards --- theist or atheist, liberal or conservative, libertarian or whatever-the-opposite-of-libertarian-is --- would step forward and say that Woboboist parents should have the right to do that to their children?
No. We'd be all: "Seriously? They do what? And without anesthetic? ARRGH! Stoppit stoppit stoppit." We would put forward such a display of unanimity as these forums have never seen before nor will again.
Anyone who can't take the same attitude towards circumcision as practiced by Jews is being influenced by some consideration other than the morality of the act considered in itself.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

  
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