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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
AdminPD
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Message 331 of 492 (554289)
04-07-2010 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by killinghurts
04-07-2010 3:04 AM


Topic Please
This thread is about whether Jesus is God, not whether Jesus or God are real.
Please adjust accordingly.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by killinghurts, posted 04-07-2010 3:04 AM killinghurts has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 332 of 492 (554309)
04-07-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Peg
04-07-2010 1:25 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA, from your quote, i can show with just one scripture...jesus own words....how they are wrong.
they say
The difference is that JW's define Jesus as a lessor class of being, and we, defining the two occurrences of God identically, as an equal class of being! Our position is irrefutably solid and the only consistent one.
What did Jesus say about himself?
The Father is greater than I am. John 14:28
John 5:19 Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner"
John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me"
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: ..‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’
1Cor 11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; ... in turn the head of the Christ is God"
Matt 24:36 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"
So how consistent are they really? They claim Jesus is equal with God, yet Jesus showed that he was not equal....he did not even have the same knowledge of God concerning the time when God would act.
the trinity debate has raged for centuries and it will continue to rage because the teaching that Jesus is God has no basis in scripture. Never did and never will.
I think all of this and these verses can be explained in the servant STATE which Christ chose to accept even as God. He willingly put things aside, the priviledges of deity, not deity itself, thus BECOMING less in some respect,
"Took on the form of a servant and was FOUND in the LIKENESS of men and BECAME obedient, even to the point of death"
So I dont think the scholars are wrong, you and others simply have a different view of his earthly ministry and precarnate existence.
But all we can do is rely on thier scholarship to tell us what the original says and more importantly how it is to be applied in its context.
There seems to be a consensus amoung them that the NWT is not a scholarly approach
I wonder what they think about these scholars and translators who disagree with them?
I think they think, they are not reputable based on a simple misunderstanding of even the BASIC rules that apply to greek construction and grammar.
I dont think they would be so vocal, were it not so obvious
Jaywill writes:
Jesus, by the way, was the man who had His birth in Bethlehem. That was the beginning of the man Jesus. But as to the Son of God, He is addressed as God in Hebrews 1:8.
CARM has this to say concerning this passage. Perhaps we should carry the conversation to this passage, since it seems to be very clear concerning his deity. Lets see what your position is on it
Heb. 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, "God is thy throne."
"But with reference to the Son: 'God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness'" The New World Translation.
In this particularly interesting verse, God is addressing the Son. The Greek construction of Hebrews 1:8 allows the text to be translated in two legitimate ways:
"God is your throne forever and ever....
and
"Thy Throne O God, is forever and ever..."
But because of the Watchtower presupposition that Jesus is not God, they choose the first version, otherwise, the Father would be calling Jesus God and that goes against Jehovah's Witness theology. Yet, most Bibles do not translate it the way the New World Translation does. They choose the other way. Why? Two reasons.
First, Heb. 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6, which says,
"Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy Kingdom" (All Bible quotes are from the NASB).
In fact, the ASV, KJV, NIV, and NKJV all translated it as "Your throne, O God..." The RSV translates it as "Your divine throne endures for ever and ever," "but this is a highly unlikely translation because it requires understanding the Hebrew noun for "throne" in construct state, something extremely unusual when a noun has a pronomial suffix, as this one does...The KJV, NIV, and NASB all take the verse in its plain, straightforward sense, as do the ancient translations..."1
When we look at the Hebrew, we see that there is no grammatical requirement for this translation, though it is considered to be the best translation by most translators. In and of itself, this is not conclusive because the context of this verse in Psalm 45 is dealing with a king which would make one wonder why he would be addressed as God. But, it is not uncommon for NT writers to take a verse in the OT that seemingly deals with one subject and apply it to another. They knew something we didn't. In fact, in Ezekiel 28:12-17 is a section that deals with the fall of the devil. Verse 13 describes how he was in the garden of Eden. Verse 14 says he was the anointed cherub, (v. 15), etc. But the context of this section begins with an address to the king of Tyre (v. 12). Yet, right after Ezekiel is told to write to the King of Tyre he then goes on to describe what the great majority of theologians agree with, a description of the devil's fall. So, we need to look at the context into which the writer of Hebrews put Psalm 45:6. He addressed it to Jesus. Therefore, Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm and must in interpreted in light of the NT, not the other way around.
Nevertheless, the context of this verse follows:
"For to which of the angels did He ever say, "Thou are My son, Today I have begotten Thee"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me"? 6And when he again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." 7And of the angels He says "Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." 8But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom, 9Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy companions. 10And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands; 11They will perish, but though remainest...." (Heb. 1:5-11).
To say "God is your throne" doesn't make sense. What does it mean to say, "But to which of the angels did he say, God is your throne." What would that mean? Is God, Jesus' throne? God alone is on His throne and He isn't a throne for anyone else.
Also worth noting here is verse 10: "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands..." This is a quote from Psalm 102:24-25 which says, "I say, 'O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Thy years are throughout all generations. 25Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands.'" Clearly, God is the one being addressed in Psalm 102. It is God who laid the foundations of the earth. Yet, in Heb. 1:10, Jesus is called 'Lord' and is said to be the one who laid the foundation of the earth. This becomes even more interesting when we note that in Isaiah 44:24 it says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone." If God was laying the foundations of the earth alone, that would mean that either Jesus has to be God, second person of the trinity, who laid the foundation the same as YHWH did, or we have a contradiction in the Bible. Clearly this section of Hebrews is proclaiming that Jesus is God. Therefore, contextually, it is best to translate Heb. 1:8 as, "Thy Throne, O God. . ." and the Father call Jesus God.
The Watchtower organization denies that Jesus is God. Therefore, it cannot permit any verses in the Bible to even hint that Jesus is God. That is why they choose a translation that does not best fit the context or overall theology of the Bible.
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Peg, posted 04-07-2010 1:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 333 of 492 (554314)
04-07-2010 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Peg
04-06-2010 8:10 PM


Re: Granville Sharp
quote:
What makes you think the 'rule' granville sharpe invented is even accurate?
Two reasons:
1) I have read the scholarly defense of his rule offered by Dan Wallace. This answers the criticisms of the rule and shows that it holds up. (I've encouraged you to read this paper a few times now, but it sounds like you have not yet done so. Are you afraid of it?)
2) You are fighting the rule, but have yet to find a NT example which disproves it.
So, lots of evidence FOR the rule, no evidence AGAINST it. This is supposed to make us doubt its accuracy??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Peg, posted 04-06-2010 8:10 PM Peg has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 334 of 492 (554390)
04-07-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Peg
04-07-2010 1:25 AM


Jesus is the Word of God
John 1:1-3 translated in the Interlinear Greek-English New Testamant reads as follows,
1. In beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and God was the Word.
2. This One was in beginning with God.
3. All things through Him became, and without Him became not one thing which has become.
In order to get around the clear revelation that "God was the Word," Jehovah's Witnesses have created their own translation of the Bible - the New World Translation - which says Jesus was a god, thus making Jesus a created being.
No Christian group uses the New World Translation Bible and Jehovah's Witnesses make very little use of other Bibles, relying instead on their own the New World Translation Bible.
When any group can write their own bible as do JW's, they can make it say whatever suits their beliefs.
But God who has revealed Himself as the Word who created all things, and then entered the world He created becoming flesh, declares,
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Those who do not receive "God the Word who became flesh" cannot become children of God.
It's as simple and as difficult as that!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Peg, posted 04-07-2010 1:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 335 of 492 (554408)
04-08-2010 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Peg
04-07-2010 12:53 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
jaywill writes:
Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism.
Peg:
well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism.
Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus.
Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes:
Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
This is one of the poorer defenses of their polytheism that I notice Jehovah's Witnesses continue to use.
Notice that Paul uses the phrase "so called" - "For even if there are SO-CALLED gods ..." (my emphasis)
It should be clear that "so-called gods" are the misunderstanding of the outsiders to the Christian church. The pagan has many "so called gods" . These deities are either fallen angels or demons or simply false idols.
Paul specifies that "Yet to us there is one God ...". The "US" is the Christian church, the brotherhood of faith. The "US" is the Body of Christ. And towards the church there is one God.
The question I would have for you Peg, is are you part of the "us" Paul mentions or not ? If you offer as an explanation that the Bible speaks of many gods and many lords therefore Jesus is one of those many other gods, then I doubt that you are in the brotherhood of Christian faith that Paul indicates as the "us" ... "Yet to us there is one God ..."
Jehovah's Witnesses teach pagan polytheism and excuse their polytheism by offering 1 Cor. 8:5,6 as proof that Scripture gives them the right to teach that there are many gods.
In effect they are saying "For US Jehovah's Witnesses there are many gods".
They must not be a part of the "us" of the brotherhood of the Christian church to which there is one God.
jaywill writes:
Besides, to suggest that John opens his Gospel with a teaching of more than one God would contradict the Son's summary of His mission in His prayer in John 17:
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3)
Jaywill, i hate to break it to you, but this scitpure you've used shows us two, not one.
"You, the only true God AND HIM whom you have sent, Jesus Christ"
You need not be afraid to "break it" to me. I consider the passage very carefully. And my response is:
Yes, this passage, like many passages speak of TWO. The TWO are distinct. But they are not separate. For where ONE is the OTHER is always within or there also.
This is called by some "co-inherance". The Father lives in the Son and the Son lives in the Father.
So the phrase triune became useful to grasp this side of God's nature. There is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as THREE. Though they are distinct they are not separated.
Now I notice that you did not say WHAT was two. You simply said that they were TWO. I agree with putting it this way because human language is limited to specify exactly WHAT is two.
And in the Triune God it is a limitation of human language to specify exactly WHAT is being said is THREE. We may borrow the term Persons, ie. three Persons. But even "persons" should not be stressed too far. For "three persons" can easily mislead to "three gods" then.
So some of us prefer to leave it blank - "three _____". So I am by no means devastated that John 17:3 or the whole chapter for that matter, speaks of TWO ________. The fact of the matter is that the entire revelation shows them never to be separate though they are distinct. And each ______ of the Triune God lives in the other.
In the formula "name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 28:19 it is ONE NAME. Jesus did not say "into the NAMES [plural] of the Father ... Son ... Holy Spirit" but into the [singular] NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
The name of the one into whom new believers are baptized is then really "Father - Son - Holy Spirit", one NAME. And Scripture stresses that there is only one God. Especially, "to us" the Christian church.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Peg, posted 04-07-2010 12:53 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 4:10 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 339 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2010 10:22 AM jaywill has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 336 of 492 (554410)
04-08-2010 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by jaywill
04-08-2010 2:39 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
jaywill writes:
Paul specifies that "Yet to us there is one God ...". The "US" is the Christian church, the brotherhood of faith. The "US" is the Body of Christ. And towards the church there is one God.
The question I would have for you Peg, is are you part of the "us"
Paul was speaking to christians in his time, the first century. So Paul specifies that there is only one God they worship. So when you ask me if I am part of the 'US' I assume you are refering to the christians whom Paul taught, yes?
Yet the trinity God that you know of was not taught by Paul or any of the other christians in his time.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299 writes:
The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.
So I can 100% answer yes to your question. I worship the only true and ONE God Jehovah. The God of the OT who was never spoken of as a triune god.
The only triune gods were hear about in the OT are the gods of Egypt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 2:39 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 8:45 AM Peg has replied
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 9:15 AM Peg has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 337 of 492 (554430)
04-08-2010 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Peg
04-08-2010 4:10 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Paul was speaking to christians in his time, the first century.
There is no limit set by Paul establishing that Christians AFTER the first century were NOT to heed the truths set forth in the epistle. That is your selective and arbitrary limitation imposed on First Corinthians to twist it to justify your polytheism.
The epistle is addressed as follows:
" ... to the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, [who] is theirs and ours." (1 Cor. 1:1,2)
There is no hint that the church in Corinth should no longer pay attention to the epistle after the immediate time is ended, ie. after the close of the century.
There is the indication that the letter is also to those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ.
There is the indication that the letter is generally to "saints" who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus. Two thousand years from this writing, Jesus Christ is both "theirs and our" . Time has not changed that. Place has also not changed that.
So I catagorically reject that the exhortation that for the Christians there is one God is no longer applicable. With this flimsy misunderstanding every point of faith could be dismissed as being no longer applicable. For instance, Paul's whole discussion of the resurrection of Jesus in chapter 15, could be dismissed with a false hope that Paul was only speaking to first century Christians.
These are not culturally enfluenced norms of some temporary nature. They are major tenets of the Christian faith. So 1 Cor. 8:5,6 is truth for the Christian church in that century and in all subsequent centuries as well.
So Paul specifies that there is only one God they worship. So when you ask me if I am part of the 'US' I assume you are refering to the christians whom Paul taught, yes?
Of course. And Paul is still teaching us today if we are Christians and opened to his epistles. Are you saying that Paul is NOT a teacher for you ?
Yet the trinity God that you know of was not taught by Paul or any of the other christians in his time.
The word "trinity" may indeed have not been used by the contempararies of Paul. The FACTS that the the Son is called God, the Father is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God is particular to the New Testament before the coining of the word "trinity".
The FACT of the Triune God was from eternity. The invention of the theological term "trinity" did not do anything but provide a human language expression for such a revelation.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299 writes:
The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.
It is quite ironic that you appeal to the Catholic Enyclopedia when you well know that Jehovah's Witnesses have so much to criticize Catholicism for.
Would this Catholic Encyclodpedia therefore also be an authority for you on matters of Mary worship, crosses, Easter, Christmas, All Saints Day (Halloween), as well ?
Isaiah 9:6 has the child born called the Mighty God. Compare to Psalm 50 - "The Mighty One, God Jehovah, ..." (Psa. 50:1)
The Mighty God Jehovah is the same one as that little child born in Isaiah's prophecy. Isaiah didn't get his clue from the church fathers or any Christian council or creed.
The Mighty God that the child is called is also the same Mighty God in Jeremiah 32:18 - "the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name ..."
So the phrase "Three-One God" was only invented to discribe the facts of Scripture that had been there for centries. Had the truth not been so attacked by Arius and others seeking to deny the incarnation of God, then perhaps the theological defense terms may not have been invented.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 4:10 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 6:11 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 338 of 492 (554432)
04-08-2010 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Peg
04-08-2010 4:10 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
So I can 100% answer yes to your question. I worship the only true and ONE God Jehovah. The God of the OT who was never spoken of as a triune god.
The only triune gods were hear about in the OT are the gods of Egypt.
I don't know of any triune gods in Egyptian religion.
I know of the polytheism taught down at your Kingdom Hall where they taught you that there is Jehovah the Almighty God and another God, the Mighty God - polytheism.
And I know that the Bible contradicts this Watchtower polytheism by specifying that Jehovah is both the Mighty God and the Almighty God.
The little child born in Isaiah 9:6 unto us, is called "Mighty God". So God was incarnated as a human child.
Now if you worship the true God He desires the worship in spirit and in reality. God is Spirit and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in reality.
So you should seek to be born again in your human spirit. But to do that you have to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior God.
But you resist that because the Kingdom Hall taught you that Jesus Christ is the angel Michael. You are being deceived Peg.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 4:10 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-08-2010 12:01 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 343 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 6:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 339 of 492 (554444)
04-08-2010 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by jaywill
04-08-2010 2:39 AM


posting tip
Hey jaywill,
You can nest quote boxes!
You wrote:
jaywill writes:
Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism.
Peg:
well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism.
Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus.
Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes:
Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Its easier to read like this:
jaywill writes:
Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism.
Peg:
well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism.
Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus.
Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes:
Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Also, you can put qs=name to get:
peg writes:
jaywill writes:
Whether or not these multiple Gods are worshipped is beside the point. The fact that they are taught is polytheism.
well even the bible teaches that there are many gods.... its not the teaching that makes for polytheism, its the worship of those gods that makes polytheism.
Paul acknowledges two Gods here....The Father and Jesus.
Paul at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6 writes:
Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earthas indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
It makes it easier to follow. Like, this one here is hard to know who's saying what:
jaywill writes:
Besides, to suggest that John opens his Gospel with a teaching of more than one God would contradict the Son's summary of His mission in His prayer in John 17:
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3)
Jaywill, i hate to break it to you, but this scitpure you've used shows us two, not one.
"You, the only true God AND HIM whom you have sent, Jesus Christ"
Just click Peek to see how I did it. And you can put a bunch of them nested like this:
1
2
3
4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 2:39 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 12:31 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 340 of 492 (554459)
04-08-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jaywill
04-08-2010 9:15 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
So you should seek to be born again in your human spirit. But to do that you have to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior God.
But you resist that because the Kingdom Hall taught you that Jesus Christ is the angel Michael. You are being deceived Peg.
Peg and jaywill, I have started a new thread that will start to address the issue/s you are discussing in these paragraphs. it is titled, 'What constitues matters of brotherhood and fellowship". it is in the Comparative Religion, section.
Hope to see yall there
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 9:15 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 341 of 492 (554464)
04-08-2010 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by New Cat's Eye
04-08-2010 10:22 AM


Re: posting tip
Thanks. But may take me a few to master that technique.
I try to keep it simple and my multiple nestings are sometimes done in error and unintentionally
thanks again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2010 10:22 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 342 of 492 (554524)
04-08-2010 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by jaywill
04-08-2010 8:45 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
jaywill writes:
There is no limit set by Paul establishing that Christians AFTER the first century were NOT to heed the truths set forth in the epistle. That is your selective and arbitrary limitation imposed on First Corinthians to twist it to justify your polytheism.
Of course. And Paul is still teaching us today if we are Christians and opened to his epistles. Are you saying that Paul is NOT a teacher for you ?
We are talking about the trinity teaching though...something that Paul did not teach. You used Pauls words to back up your argument about acceptiing the trinity teaching...but Paul never taught such a teaching as the catholic encycolpedia explained.
In fact the teaching didnt come from any of the apostles and you know it.
jaywill writes:
It is quite ironic that you appeal to the Catholic Enyclopedia when you well know that Jehovah's Witnesses have so much to criticize Catholicism for.
Would this Catholic Encyclodpedia therefore also be an authority for you on matters of Mary worship, crosses, Easter, Christmas, All Saints Day (Halloween), as well ?
jw's have come to their understanding through studying many sources...including the catholic encylopedia. You can learn a lot about what is and what is not in there.
When they even admit themselves that the trinity teaching is not from the apostles, so tell me why anyone should be inclined to respect it as an apostolic teaching??? Its not a bible teaching, its a false knowledge that the apostles warned christians about.
1Timothy 6:20"O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called knowledge. 21For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith."
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 8:45 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-08-2010 6:39 PM Peg has replied
 Message 346 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 8:07 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 343 of 492 (554526)
04-08-2010 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jaywill
04-08-2010 9:15 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
jaywill writes:
I don't know of any triune gods in Egyptian religion.
Osiris, Isis, and their son Horus
jaywill writes:
But you resist that because the Kingdom Hall taught you that Jesus Christ is the angel Michael. You are being deceived Peg.
you can claim that if you wish.
I didnt need JW's to tell me that the apostles never taught the trinity doctrine...i can see it for myself in the catholic encyclopedia.
So tell me, if the trinity teaching didnt come from Paul or any of the other apostles, Who's word are you really learning from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 9:15 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by jaywill, posted 04-08-2010 7:21 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 350 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2010 11:16 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 344 of 492 (554529)
04-08-2010 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Peg
04-08-2010 6:11 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
jw's have come to their understanding through studying many sources...including the catholic encylopedia. You can learn a lot about what is and what is not in there.
When they even admit themselves that the trinity teaching is not from the apostles, so tell me why anyone should be inclined to respect it as an apostolic teaching??? Its not a bible teaching, its a false knowledge that the apostles warned christians about.
Since we have demonstrated in the best possible way that Jesus is God from the scriptures it would follow that your contentions are baseless.
You know that John 8:58 is indentical to Isa 41:4 and you are burying your head in the sand. The Jews knew exacally what Jesus was claiming, that is why they wanted to stone him.
If he was not saying this, then there was no reason for them to react in such an angry manner. Whether he states, IAM or Iam he, they knew exacally what he meant and was implying
there were simply to many instances where they accused him of making himself equal to God, that he could (have on the spot) cleared the matter up by making it clear that he was not claiming to be equal with God, he did not do that
He could at another time, not involving that exact point stated something like, You have heard it said, that I make myself equal to God by the teachers of the Law, that is simply not true
When a clear example of "My Lord and My God" is presented, you simply explain it away to suit your doctrine
When a clear statement by the Apostle that says, "In him DWELT all the fullness of the Gohead bodily", you manuever it to say something other than what the REST OF THE SCRIPTURES CONFIRM,ie, Revelations 2:8
further, you side stepped all over the place in Revelations trying to avoid the fact that, 'First and Last', did not mean God himself, when refering to Christ. The meanings you tried to force into these expressions are nothing short of nonsense, when applied to that CONTEXT and you know it Peg.
No angel first or last in creation would use that expression. If they would or did, show me something even close to it in scripture
I could go on for an hour listing what you have sidestepped, trying to avoid obvious conclusions.
Your arrogance as to what the Apostles did or did not teach is in your mind alone. disagreement is understandable, your arrogance is unwarrented
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 6:11 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Peg, posted 04-09-2010 5:59 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 345 of 492 (554540)
04-08-2010 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Peg
04-08-2010 6:18 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Osiris, Isis, and their son Horus
So what ?
Next you could show a picture of Mt. Rushmore and claim that is proof of the worship of a Four in one God by a country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Peg, posted 04-08-2010 6:18 PM Peg has not replied

  
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