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Author Topic:   Are Atheists "Philosophically Limited"....?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 241 of 262 (724786)
04-20-2014 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by GDR
04-20-2014 6:11 PM


Re: QM
I'm in no way qualified to have this discussion but certainly as I understand it, the only other way that a wave collapses is by being measured by a device constructed by a conscious being.
No, not really. Consider for example what happens when a photon hits a molecule of chlorophyll, transferring its energy to it, exciting it, kicking off the process of photosythesis.
To do that, the photon has to be in a particular place causing a thermodynamically irreversible chain of events. This is just what our measuring instruments do for us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 6:11 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 8:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 242 of 262 (724789)
04-20-2014 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by AZPaul3
04-20-2014 6:35 PM


Re: A Definite Article.
AZPaul3 writes:
What? A different conclusion? An article of faith?
I cannot argue an article of faith.
Neither can I.
Dr Adequate writes:
Based on this I must further conclude that the world goes 'round and that life with different people is very interesting.
Amen to that brother....and again

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 243 of 262 (724790)
04-20-2014 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Dr Adequate
04-20-2014 7:02 PM


Re: QM
DR Adequate writes:
To do that, the photon has to be in a particular place causing a thermodynamically irreversible chain of events. This is just what our measuring instruments do for us.
But we don't know that until it is observed, however you are probably correct in saying that the chlorophyll takes the place of a measuring device.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-20-2014 7:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 244 of 262 (724791)
04-20-2014 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by GDR
04-20-2014 8:31 PM


Re: QM
But we don't know that until it is observed ...
Well, again, you don't need to drag QM into it to say that.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 245 of 262 (724806)
04-21-2014 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by GDR
04-20-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
GDR writes:
I know that unequivocally that the tooth fairy does not exist so presumably you believe unequivocally that God doesn't exist making you a 7 on Dawkin's scale which flies in the face of what oni claims.
There is another step.
I know unequivocally (7) that there is no religious God of the type you believe and that is true of all atheists. We say that Jesus/Vishnu/Thor=tooth fairy.
But I can not ever know that there is no god. That's just trivially true and also irrelevant.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 6:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 246 of 262 (724812)
04-21-2014 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by GDR
04-20-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Likely vs Unlikely
I agree that from reading your posts that you are a six but you have misrepresented Dawkins scale of belief.
Huh? I was going off the top of my head and I got it pretty close.
I wrote for a 6 on the scale:
quote:
I don't know if there is a god or not, but based on the evidence it is unlikely.
Dawkins writes:
quote:
I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.
How are you reading a misrepresentation here?!
As either atheists or theists world wide we all have a nagging doubt that we could be wrong.
I have no nagging doubt because your position lacks objective evidence and requires faith, but I don't. Maybe you are more of a 3 on the scale.
Of course it's a belief. Why on earth are you so opposed to agreeing with that.
Because I don't "believe" in favor of any of the sides. I can't agree with something that misrepresents my position.
Look at #6 on the Dawkins scale, and look at what I wrote. Where on either of those do you read "I believe there is no god"...? It is pretty clear that it is a matter of probability, or as I said a matter of likely or unlikely.
Here again you misrepresent:
You believe that no intelligent agency exists and I believe that one does.
Why do you keep shoving belief into my position? I have told you that I DON'T believe there is no god.
The conversation goes like this:
You: Do you believe in god?
Me: No
You: So you believe there is no god?
Me: No, I don't believe that either.
You: What do you mean?
Me: I don't know if there is a god or not, but from the objective evidence it seems unlikely.
No belief at all.
- Oni

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 Message 237 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 6:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 247 of 262 (724813)
04-21-2014 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by GDR
04-20-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
I know that unequivocally that the tooth fairy does not exist so presumably you believe unequivocally that God doesn't exist making you a 7 on Dawkin's scale which flies in the face of what oni claims.
There are gods that we are ALL 7's for. Thor, Zues, Odin, etc. For many of us, Jesus is also one of these gods. He fits all the same patterns, and all the same evidence that made those gods like Odin and Thor myths are found in the story of Jesus also - and Allah, or Vishnu.
So yes, if YOU are talking about the god Jesus many of us would be a solid 7 the way you would be if I was talking about Thor.
It's the famous quote from Hitchens or Harris or one of those guys: We are all atheist to some gods, I just go one more than you.
However, when the conversation is about the god of a deist - the new age "Energy in the universe that created everything" or "An intelligent agent" - then I fall down to a 6.
It is also the reason I call myself an ignostic. A person that needs you to define what you mean by god before I can give my opinion about the god in question.
- Oni

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 262 (724816)
04-21-2014 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by onifre
04-21-2014 9:14 AM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
So did you enjoy the "spirituality" of a 420 rally, or did you do other things on sunday? I went to church early---they are like extended family but they dont do stoniness well....(I havent really gotten high in months...just too busy...) but at my job lots of stoners came in from the rally ...They bought way more food than usual...business was good at the store. I celebrated the belief that Jesus is alive and His Spirit with us...so I was naturally high, but I had no ill will towards those who celebrated different sources of enlightenment.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 249 of 262 (724857)
04-21-2014 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
04-21-2014 10:07 AM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
I celebrated the belief that Jesus is alive and His Spirit with us...so I was naturally high, but I had no ill will towards those who celebrated different sources of enlightenment.
Is that why they give out communion during church service? Jesus gives you dry mouth and the munchies?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 250 of 262 (724858)
04-21-2014 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
04-21-2014 4:03 AM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
But I can not ever know that there is no god. That's just trivially true and also irrelevant.
Ultimately, that is the hurdle that theism has to get over. In order to keep their beliefs from being challenged, they have made the supernatural so undetectable to science that it has become irrelevant and superfluous.
It is the same as Sagan's invisible fire breathing dragon that lives in garages. The dragon doesn't change the world around us in any meaningful or measurable way, and yet people believe in the fire breathing dragons that live in their garages.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 251 of 262 (724872)
04-21-2014 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
04-21-2014 4:03 AM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
I'm not quite sure that you can unequivocally know that. You may be unequivocally convinced. ( I guess that is how I would be with unicorns as well. )
Edited by GDR, : Picked myself up on saying that I unequivocally know unicorns don't exist.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2014 4:03 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2014 6:34 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 252 of 262 (724878)
04-21-2014 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by onifre
04-21-2014 9:02 AM


Re: Likely vs Unlikely
onifre writes:
How are you reading a misrepresentation here?!
I was just pointing out that Dawkins #7 was stronger that what you had written but I agree you were close. It does seem though that there are 7's on this forum which is contrary to what you had suggested. However it it's irrelevant anyway.
onifre writes:
I have no nagging doubt because your position lacks objective evidence and requires faith, but I don't. Maybe you are more of a 3 on the scale.
I'd describe myself as a strong 2.
onifre writes:
Why do you keep shoving belief into my position? I have told you that I DON'T believe there is no god.
The conversation goes like this:
You: Do you believe in god?
Me: No
You: So you believe there is no god?
Me: No, I don't believe that either.
You: What do you mean?
Me: I don't know if there is a god or not, but from the objective evidence it seems unlikely.
It seems extremely unlikely to me that mindless processes are responsible for intelligent life. I believe that to be the case just as you believe the opposite.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by onifre, posted 04-21-2014 9:02 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 253 of 262 (724882)
04-21-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by GDR
04-21-2014 10:56 PM


Re: Likely vs Unlikely
It seems extremely unlikely to me that mindless processes are responsible for intelligent life.
The difference is that we can show that those processes actually exist, and that the evidence is consistent with those processes. You can't say the same for a belief in deities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by GDR, posted 04-21-2014 10:56 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Stile, posted 04-22-2014 10:59 AM Taq has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 254 of 262 (724892)
04-22-2014 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by GDR
04-21-2014 10:56 PM


Re: Likely vs Unlikely
It seems extremely unlikely to me that mindless processes are responsible for intelligent life. I believe that to be the case just as you believe the opposite.
YOU can believe that all you want, but I don't believe the opposite as you say.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by GDR, posted 04-21-2014 10:56 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 255 of 262 (724893)
04-22-2014 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by GDR
04-21-2014 10:24 PM


Re: Kill The QM Philosopher
GDR writes:
I'm not quite sure that you can unequivocally know that.
Because we know that religions are man made and that there is no evidence to support any of their claims. I assume you have no problem saying that Poseidon never existed?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by GDR, posted 04-21-2014 10:24 PM GDR has not replied

  
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