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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5527 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is bicamerality bullshit? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5527 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
If Helen Keller or anyone else is born with human consciousness, then he or she must get it genetically. And if that's the case then there must be a consciousness gene.
yes, it's that thing that makes our brains. quote:Makes me wonder if a bicameral (god) gene actually does exist. And if there is indeed a god gene then there would be the predictable alleles: Christian, Jew, Islam, Hindu, Voodoo, etc. ”HM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
And if there is indeed a god gene then there would be the predictable alleles: Christian, Jew, Islam, Hindu, Voodoo, etc. what about people who were genuinely one belief and then switched? do they have a dual gene? this is all so ridiculous. consciousness is nothing more than fuses and chemistry.
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5527 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
consciousness is nothing more than fuses and chemistry.
Would that mechanical explanation also apply to the voices heard by those who claim to speak with God? ”HM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
why aren't you asking about the imagination that makes people see unicorns? it's the same. there's nothing special about "supernatural" experience that makes it any different from any other thing that does or does not happen. if god exists, then they might be hearing him. whether he does or doesn't, they might also be using their imagination or hallucinating. this is not a special variety of hallucination, just the same old ordinary variety.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
If Helen Keller or anyone else is born with human consciousness, then he or she must get it genetically. And if that's the case then there must be a consciousness gene.
That's presented in the form of a logical argument. But I am not finding any logic. "Consciousness" is a vague term. People disagree on what it means. How can a specific gene be responsible for something so non-specific?
Then I could understand how Helen Keller possessed human consciousness before she met Anne Sullivan, or even before she was born.
Why do you treat consciousness as a thing that you have or don't have? Surely there can be degrees of consciousness. I wondering what you mean by "bicameral". What you are saying doesn't match what I take to be the usual meaning. Let's end the political smears
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
What does "the whole of the brain" mean? This seems to me to be as nebulous as bicamerality. it means "the whole of the brain." as opposed to half of it. but, like i said, we don't need to understand precisely what does give rise to consciousness to know that certain ideas about it are wrong.
Wow! "Crackpot"! Such claims without having read Jaynes' book. Are you sure you know what you're talking about then? and yet, you do not refute my points. as i stated above, i got basically the audiobook version. i wasn't doing the reading, but i sure got the information. my "crackpot" opinion is gathered from the information above, none of which you cared to even try to refute: he's wrong on a whole plethora of topics. it's also gathered from talking to psychologists -- that's what they think of him. like i said, you bring him up in psychological circles and you'll get same groans as if you talk about feduccia in paleontological circles, and the same groans you'll get if you bring up ron wyatt in biblical archaeology circles. he's a crackpot. it was a creative idea in the 70's, but it's been disproven. and, to my knowledge, he kept pushing it to the day he died. and gained a lot of followers who didn't seem to care that all of the supporting arguments were wrong.
Please, arachnophilia, help me out and tell what consciousness really is if it is not a linguistic thing. You seem to cling to structuralism, so throw me a bone. And please don't tell me it's the "whole brain" unless you know what that means wrt human consciousness. i think it's fairly easy to understand that some people do not think in words. and i'm really not sure what your point is anyways -- jaynes does not argue that consciousness is linguistic. in fact, he argues that a lot of people with written language were preconscious. clearly this is not jayne's definition -- what's your's? further, it's a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? people capable of language misinterpretting their own language centers? either they're in conscious control of their linguistic faculties, or they are not.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
language is, by definition, a conscious act. Buh? How so? ask hoot mon. he seems to think consciousness is linguistic (but that some language doesn't count). i would say that symbolic representation of ideas is a conscious act. admittedly, i don't have a good argument for it. if you'd like to submit a counter argument, i'd be more than willing to consider it.
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5527 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
bremmakimi writes:
I've never seen one, nor have I heard godly voices. What am I lacking then? Imagination? No, I have a good imagination. What I am lacking is bicamerality. I lack what Jerry Falwell has: the ability to hear God's voice and to communicate with Him. Are you ready to say that Jerry Falwell is only having an imagined experience when he talks to God? What would Rev. Falwell say about that? why aren't you asking about the imagination that makes people see unicorns? If Jerry Falwell speaks to God then I would say he fits the description of being bicameral. ”HM
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faust  Suspended Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 16 Joined: |
quote: Yes, the body's increase in production of dimethyltriptamine during the "religious experience".
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faust  Suspended Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 16 Joined: |
quote: Nothing, he's dead.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If Helen Keller or anyone else is born with human consciousness, then he or she must get it genetically. And if that's the case then there must be a consciousness gene. Then I could understand how Helen Keller possessed human consciousness before she met Anne Sullivan, or even before she was born. helen keller had a human brain that functioned normally. consciousness is an artifact of the operation of the human brain. the only "consciousness genes" are the ones responsible for the brain. now, we might argue over coma patients. people with inactive frontal lobes may not be conscious. significant brain damage does disrupt consciousness.
Do religions teach their followers to have vocal communications with their gods? If so maybe they invoke bicamerality as a means of mass control. you're still using "bicamerality" in an especially bullshit way. jaynes was not arguing that this is the source of modern religion. as i stated above, you will find far simpler explanations in classical conditioning and group think -- no brain damage needed.
But it's still real either way to those who claim they have conversations with their gods. if you ask a believer. ask a recovering christian next time. (where's crashfrog when we need him?)
Come on! If you really do hear a voice claiming to be God's something must be going somewhere in your mind to allow for such profound audibility. Can someone do that without having bicamerality? I don't think so. once again. truly bicameral minds, the ones with fully or partially severed corpus callosums, do not have audible hallucinations. auditory hallucinations are caused schizophrenia (which does not actually mean "bicameral" as much as it sounds like it does), improper balances of neuroreceptors, and in some cases poor blood flow to the brain. that's called "completely falsified." not only does the supposed state not cause the effects, but we know that the effects are caused by other factors.
I certainly do know that I cannot do that. Therefore I know that I do not carry the bicameral trait, heritable or otherwise. Whew! this is a very poor excuse for logic. besides the above hole, it's jumping to conclusions, incredulity, and false anecdotal evidence. you do not certainly know that you cannot have auditory hallucinations -- otherwise conscious and rational people have them as the result of various medications or brain injury. if we did either of those things to you, it's very possible that you would hear voices. and all with a perfectly working corpus callosum.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
What I am lacking is bicamerality. you and every other eutherian mammal.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3955 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
are you then suggesting that you're more evolved than the religious? that's an awfully self-righteous assumption for you to make.
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5527 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
What would Rev. Falwell say about that?
Nothing, he's dead. ”HM
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5527 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
nwr writes:
Yes, I have strayed somewhat from the usual meaning. I'm doing that because I don't know what else to call "hearing God's voice and speaking with Him." I'm calling it "bicameral." What would you call it? Just more Tinkerbell foolishness? I wondering what you mean by "bicameral". What you are saying doesn't match what I take to be the usual meaning. ”HM
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