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Author Topic:   Why does Richard Dawkins sing Christmas carols?
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 181 of 301 (442355)
12-20-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by molbiogirl
12-20-2007 7:21 PM


Re: Sin, you unabashed pagan!!!
Remarkable. So you are intimately familiar with the particulars of Dr. Dawkins personal life.
That or use of common sense and logic.
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten the rest of us.
Bad guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by molbiogirl, posted 12-20-2007 7:21 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by molbiogirl, posted 12-20-2007 7:35 PM sinequanon has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 182 of 301 (442356)
12-20-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by sinequanon
12-20-2007 7:31 PM


Re: Sin, you unabashed pagan!!!
That or use of common sense and logic.
I see you've chosen to avoid the question again.
Is his wife an atheist? Does she celebrate xmas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by sinequanon, posted 12-20-2007 7:31 PM sinequanon has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4146 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 183 of 301 (442357)
12-20-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Cold Foreign Object
12-20-2007 7:26 PM


time for my christmas ban!
Ray you fruit, he never documented anything - you need to get back to the doctor and ask,nay, beg him to up your meds.
Seriously, when you talk such shit all the time, you've got to wonder how you have never ended up running naked down an alley, chasing women with an axe and a hard-on.
See you all in the new year!
Edited by CK, : opps - not specific enought.
Edited by CK, : Wishing people a merry xmas and new year but I pop outside...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-20-2007 7:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by molbiogirl, posted 12-20-2007 7:49 PM CK has not replied
 Message 186 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-20-2007 8:12 PM CK has not replied
 Message 189 by Percy, posted 12-20-2007 8:38 PM CK has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 184 of 301 (442360)
12-20-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by CK
12-20-2007 7:44 PM


Re: time for my christmas ban!
CK!
You just made me laugh really hard. And with this bronchitis, I choked for a good 30 seconds.
Naughty CK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by CK, posted 12-20-2007 7:44 PM CK has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 185 of 301 (442363)
12-20-2007 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
12-16-2007 6:05 PM


To the extent that atheism is the natural conclusion of science - and it is....
Then Christian evolutionists are fools....right CF?
....because the facile idea that the "supernatural is beyond the reach of science" is clearly false - I don't see why promoting it is inconsistent with being a scientist.
Are you saying the supernatural is within the reach of science?
But getting back to Dawkins: I find it almost unbelievable that he sings Christmas carols? Dawkins is the most visible hater of Christ in the Western world. Apparently he does so without any feeling for Christ (good or bad)? I also commend him for his honest and objective admission that England has a rich Christian history. But IIRC, he says in "God Delusion" that American Founding Father's were Atheists? Well, Dawkins is not a historian, in any case.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2007 6:05 PM crashfrog has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 186 of 301 (442365)
12-20-2007 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by CK
12-20-2007 7:44 PM


Re: time for my christmas ban!
Ray you fruit, he never documented anything - you need to get back to the doctor and ask,nay, beg him to up your meds.
I've read them on the Internet. I repeat: Wallace's papers arguing for the existence of a spirit world are remarkable and extremely convincing. In fact, on one occaison he held a seance in his own house as to prevent any fraud. Fresh flowers materialized ex nihilo. He kept them for several weeks if I remember correctly.
Your reaction is ignorance and classic shooting the messenger. Your reaction also reveals a closed mind - spiritually dead - bristling over the slightest indication that the Atheist worldview is just plain wrong.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by CK, posted 12-20-2007 7:44 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by anglagard, posted 12-20-2007 8:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 855 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 187 of 301 (442366)
12-20-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Cold Foreign Object
12-20-2007 8:12 PM


Re: time for my christmas ban!
I find your defense of 19th century spiritualism interesting, in a train wreck kind of way, but it is a bit off-topic for this thread.
Would you consider a PNT? I would most likely post although I seriously doubt my message would be one of agreement.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-20-2007 8:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 188 of 301 (442367)
12-20-2007 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Cold Foreign Object
12-20-2007 7:26 PM


Re: Sin, you unabashed pagan!!!
Cold Foreign
Object
Since, like I said, he co-discovered natural selection, the dismissal of Wallace's documentation of a spirit world by fellow evolutionists goes to show that they are not interested in evidence that harms the Atheist worldview.
Man, Ray, you really dig in the bottom of the barrel for ammo of utterly useless effect.
ARW also believed that vaccinations were bogus and he also thought highly of Phrenology.
That a person is famous for one thing does not mean he cannot be wrong in another field at all. Science has peer review for this specific reason. Einstein had a good take on it in the following quote.
"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong."
You can rest assured that such things have been investigated and found lacking. But then you could always...{gasp} be specific and bring up a particular case of Wallace's to show how the scientific method was used to arrive at his conclusions.
Or you could continue your attack upon atheism as though that had any bearing on the outcome of experiments. If you do so it will merely reinforce in the viewing audience that you are shooting blanks my friend.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-20-2007 7:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 189 of 301 (442369)
12-20-2007 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by CK
12-20-2007 7:44 PM


Re: time for my christmas ban!
So the masochist says to the sadist, "Beat me!"
Replies the sadist with an evil grin, "No..."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by CK, posted 12-20-2007 7:44 PM CK has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 190 of 301 (442380)
12-20-2007 10:58 PM


On the Hypocrisy of Dawkins and his supporters...
I have found it quite amusing to read Dawkins's supporters trying to evade the very obvious, that he is being a hypocrite.
One of the first defenses seems to be to extend this to all atheists, as if to call him hypocritical all atheists would have to be considered that as well, but why? Dawkins speaks of Xianity as a delusion, viral, its stories and lessons horrific, and even its moderate members as enablers of terrorism. But then delights in its beauty and describes himself as a cultural Xian? There is an inconsistency there. And not all atheists engage in that dogmatic attack on others. So it is false to use that argument to defend Dawkins.
One of the latest responses has been to argue as if celebrating Xian culture and calling oneself a cultural Xian is the same as using words in every day language which came from Xianity (or other theistic backgrounds). But that is not the same as Sin rightly argued. It would be horribly inconvenient to try and communicate while shunning words based on their etymology. But there is no inconvenience in not celebrating Xmas... Jews and other religious people do it all the time, especially if they find Xianity repulsive. I mean does he celebrate all the other holidays as well, if not why not? In any case, he could certainly avoid partaking in the rantings of the lunatics he castigates so frequently.
So to this the rebuttal comes an answer maybe it is not convenient for Dawkins to avoid Xmas. Maybe his wife isn't an atheist? Well how would that force him to call himself a cultural Xian? How would that force him to love Xian music? In fact, why does he say Xian PRAYERS at a meal?
Here is a video where you can hear it from the horseman's mouth. Its a video of four prominent atheists discussing their affinity for Xian revelry (though Hitchens does it a nice jab) made by Dawkins for his own site. Actually its from a large video (which I recommend to atheists) called The Four Horsemen, where Dawkins and co discuss their strategy for advancing atheism over theism. The fact that he called it The Four Horsemen alone shows an errant way to promote yourself as non-threatening to Xians, while at the same time draping yourself in Xian imagery! He just can't let go.
But more to the point than what his wife could or could not make him do, or what would be called convenient if one had a theist wife...
Dawkins would marry a Xian? A theist? That doesn't subtract from the hypocrisy, it would only multiply it. What kind of dysfunctional relationship would that have to be? I love you, you delusional supporter of terrorism! I love you too big D!
All of this rings familiar to my eyes... When Conservatives who have bashed gays endlessly, get caught with their pants down (and men kneeling in front of them), these same Dawkins supporters have their chuckle. They can see the hypocrisy. But when it is their own bigot on the block, just like fellow conservatives for those "cultural gays", they stand behind their man... maybe even more so. They don't see what's wrong.
Why do I get the feeling that if Dawkins were to be caught wearing papal garb and trying to get anointed as the second coming of Christ, there'd still be people going to bat for him?

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Rrhain, posted 12-20-2007 11:58 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 194 by Taz, posted 12-21-2007 1:11 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 208 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-21-2007 2:03 PM Silent H has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 191 of 301 (442387)
12-20-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Silent H
12-20-2007 10:58 PM


Re: On the Hypocrisy of Dawkins and his supporters...
Silent H writes:
quote:
I have found it quite amusing to read Dawkins's supporters trying to evade the very obvious, that he is being a hypocrite.
Logical category error of division: That because Christianity as a whole is bad (in Dawkins' view), then that would mean that each individual part of it is bad, too.
Are you saying it is impossible to find something beautiful even though you don't appreciate the way in which it was produced? It is impossible to dislike Christianity and find it delusional and a source of great evil while recognizing that there is something good to be had in having a ritual of recognizing brotherhood and the connectedness of humanity?
As the cliche goes, "It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2007 10:58 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2007 10:08 PM Rrhain has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4208 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 192 of 301 (442388)
12-21-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Cold Foreign Object
12-20-2007 7:26 PM


Re: Sin, you unabashed pagan!!!
I doubt that you have the courage to denounce Alfred Russel Wallace...
I don't denounce a person but would denounce a person's views if they conflict with mine.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-20-2007 7:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 193 of 301 (442394)
12-21-2007 12:49 AM


A partial transcript of the Dawkins video
Hitchens: The great cultural project may be to rescue what we have of the art and aesthetic of religion while discarding the supernatural.
Dennett: And I think acknowledging the evil that was part of its creation in the first place. We can’t condone the beliefs and practices of those Aztecs, but we can stand in awe of, and want to preserve, their architecture and many other features of their culture - but not their practices and not their beliefs.
...
Dawkins: . and the woman questioning me couldn’t understand why I would wish to have this piece of music (Bach) ... this beautiful music ... and its beauty is indeed enhanced by knowing what it means. But you still don’t have to actually believe what it means. It’s like reading fiction. You can lose yourself in fiction, and be totally moved to tears by it, but nobody would ever say, "You’ve got to believe this person existed, that the sadness that you feel, really reflected something that actually happened".
Hitchens: Clearly we’re not cultural vandals, but maybe we should think of the way in which so many people suspect that that’s what we are. If I would accept one criticism that these people make, one suspicion that I suspect these people harbor, or fear that they may have, that might be the one.
Dawkins: Anyone who makes that criticism couldn’t possibly have read any one of our books .
Dennett: Well that’s another problem too . the people that . of course this isn’t just our books, it’s so many books . people don’t read them, they just read the reviews . and then they decide .
Dawkins: I haven’t got the slightest problem with xmas trees .
Htichens: . it’s a good ole Norse booze up . and why the hell not.
Dawkins: I once, at lunch, was next to the lady who was our opponent at that debate in London . Rabbi (???) . and she asked me whether I said grace in New College when I sat as Senior Fellow and I said “Of course I said grace, it’s a matter of simple courtesy.” And she was furious. That I should somehow be so hypocritical to somehow . as to say grace and I could only say “Well, look, it may mean something to you but it means absolutely nothing to me. This is a Latin formula which has some history and I appreciate history. (???) the philosopher also used to say grace and he what he said was “I won’t have falsehoods but I have no objections to uttering meaningless statements.”
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Taz
Member (Idle past 3310 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 194 of 301 (442395)
12-21-2007 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Silent H
12-20-2007 10:58 PM


Re: On the Hypocrisy of Dawkins and his supporters...
Silent H aka Holmes writes:
Dawkins speaks of Xianity as a delusion, viral, its stories and lessons horrific, and even its moderate members as enablers of terrorism. But then delights in its beauty and describes himself as a cultural Xian? There is an inconsistency there. And not all atheists engage in that dogmatic attack on others. So it is false to use that argument to defend Dawkins.
While I don't know about the other defense for Dawkins that you pointed out, I absolutely can't see the contradiction that you telling me about.
Christianity in general is exactly what Dawkins say it is because I agree with him. However, that doesn't mean that each single thing within the christian culture is always bad.
I really hate to violate Godwin's Law, but I can't think of anything else this late at night. Do you or do you not agree that the Nazi in general was an evil organization, that they were quite capable of horrendous acts against humanity? While there might be some confusion on my part as to how you would answer this question (you being always in your philosophical lalaland and all...), I would say that yes the Nazi was an evil organization and that its members were total bastards.
But wait, am I a hypocrit for being a health freak? I run several miles a day and work out regularly. I watch what I eat. And to be honest, I do admire the beauty in the human body. I'm also an environmentalist. All of these qualities I share with the Nazis. Am I a hypocrit for condeming the nazis and then exercise regularly?
To be frank, I'm losing my patience with christianity as a whole. We are one of the oldest democracies in the world and yet we are lagging behind on issues such as gay rights while a democracy as young as Hungary, who got away from communism less than 20 years ago, passed a legislation allowing gay civil union a couple days ago. Why? Because we as americans in general don't want to anger god, you see, and god hates fags.
But this does not mean I'm going to keep working through the holiday season. Why? Because it's a perfect time for me to be with my rather large extended family, especially my nephews and nieces, half of whom I have changed their diapers at one time or other.
There is no hypocrisy here. It's part of the tradition.
In fact, why does he say Xian PRAYERS at a meal?
During the worst days of the Holocaust, a group of Jews in Auschwitz decided to put god on trial for the abandonment of his people. The Jews unanimously passed a guilty verdict. After the trial, everyone prayed together like they always did everyday.
Again, I really don't mean to violate Godwin's Law, but there is a deeper meaning in this. I personally don't pray to god. But at family dinners, I do. Again, it's so ingrained in my family tradition that it does more to comfort the people than it does to comfort the imaginary god (aka hank).
That's my reason for occasionally praying out loud. I can't speak for Dawkins.
I love you, you delusional supporter of terrorism!
Again, I don't see a hypocrisy here. Ever heard of the saying "love is blind"? Ok, you have my permission to fill up the rest of the page with philosophical jargon on this.
When Conservatives who have bashed gays endlessly, get caught with their pants down (and men kneeling in front of them), these same Dawkins supporters have their chuckle.
Um, there's a big difference. The self-hating gay conservatives try their best to hide their fetish for hairy man-ass. It's not like Dawkins could hide his wife from the media... or you.
I tend to see myself as an angry atheist. This, however, does not prevent me from semi-regularly go to worships on sundays. I particularly like the catholic ones because of the music. Am I a hypocrite for liking the music? Or do I have to hate the music too in order to be a true atheist?

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2007 10:58 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by molbiogirl, posted 12-21-2007 2:38 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 224 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2007 10:50 PM Taz has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 195 of 301 (442405)
12-21-2007 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Taz
12-21-2007 1:11 AM


Re: On the Hypocrisy of Dawkins and his supporters...
It's not like Dawkins could hide his wife from the media... or you.
That's just it, Taz.
No one can say whether Dr. Dawkins' wife is an atheist or not.
And it is presumptuous of anyone to assume one way or the other.
ABE:
Here is the first hour of the video:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
Here is the second hour of the video:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
The clip mentioned in Message 190 was only 5 minutes long.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
Edited by molbiogirl, : sp
Edited by molbiogirl, : Found second hour of video

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Taz, posted 12-21-2007 1:11 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Silent H, posted 12-22-2007 11:10 PM molbiogirl has not replied

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