Born Again

No, I think in this thread you not me was the first person to even mention the Old Testament.You tried to water down being born again by saying the OT prophets said something non- "spooky" and which needed no "decoder ring" ---- ie. "The Assyrians are coming" Just because we first read about "born again" in John 3 does not prove it was the first time that Jesus had so spoken such a word.You do not know that Jesus had not previously taught such, and Nicodemus came by night for clarification. It is possible that Jesus got right to the point and repeated exactly what He knew Nicodemus had a problem with.I can't prove that. But neither can you prove that Nicodemus had not heard about the new birth before. And if he had, it makes sense that Jesus marvels that he is a teacher of Israel and has no revelatory understanding of such things.Besides, born of the Spirit, would have been a reiteration of an Old Testament prophecy: You only are born naturally ONCE. And you only need to be born again ONCE.No once can become unborn after one is born. Since the life of God that fallen man is alienated from is eternal life, once receiving this eternal life, it is received for eternity.And this is borne out in other discussions in John's Gospel. The new birth takes place once in the human spirit. The human soul is not in need of regeneration but transformation.Once the life is received, the soul is transformed by learning to live the new life that one has received.To do this successfully the revelation of the believer's co-death with Christ is needed. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live. But it is Christ who lives in me. (See Galatians 2:20).In the gospel of John this would concur with the teaching of Jesus to abide in Him and allow Him to abide in us: "Abide in Me and I in you." ( John 15:4) Of course in the natural life, being born is only the beginning. If after 20 years a man says the only thing that he has accomplished is that he has been born, that of course is very poor.Being born naturally is an initiation of a life to grow, develop, and mature. It is the same spiritually. Being born again is not an end in itself. It is a beginning of learning to abide in Him. And it is a beginning of learning that one has been crucified with Christ and raised with Christ spiritually.This is not wishful thinking. It is fact. Everyone who has been be born again sooner or latter must realize that they were terminated in thier old life when Christ died on the cross. And they were germinated into a new life when Christ was raised from the dead.This is a life long realization. Few grasp it all at once. And the realization should deepen as the Christian grows.For this abiding in Christ and learning to live in the realm of Christ the whole Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, is nourishment and sustenance.But if you do not receive the living Person of Christ, and if you are not born again, NO AMOUNT of being reminded from the Old Testament prophets is going do anything for you.Probably the humanistic opposer to the Gospel seeks to reduce the truth of regeneration to just being a matter of an ongoing reminder from the Old Testament prophets to do good things. This is a devilish twisting of the word of God.This is like Satan saying to Jesus "It is written ..." as a way to oppose God's will by pretending to use God's words."You don't need to be born again. It is not that we must be born again. It is simply that we need to be reminded again and again what some old testament prophets told us."No, the entire Scripture is the divine word of God. But Jesus said the believers have to abide in Him as branches abide in the vine. Without this abiding they can do nothing. It is true that some evangelicals have made "born again" as a "ticket" or an end in itself. Because the Lord Jesus said that one could not see the kingdom of God unless he was born again, some have made being born again as the only needed "ticket" to get in to God's kingdom.But the New Testament itself speaks of the crucialness of the new birth without implying that it is an end in itself.The only way into the human kingdom is to be born a human. However after birth the growth and maturity of human life is needed. And in the kingdom of God, no one enters without first receiving the life of God. But receiving the life of God is only a beginning for the need to abide in that life and grow into salvation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Your word of encouragement is appreciated. I must receive it humbly and reservedly.Now, if ANYONE can possibly tell me how Jar's quote from Ephesians above cleaves apart John's Gospel and Paul's teaching, I would appreciate it.What in the world does jar hope to do by re-quoting Ephesians with a bit more of the earlier sentences ??Where's the bombshell which devastates my comparing Ephesians 4 to John 1 ?As many as received Him to them He gave the authority to become children of God. Those who were HIS OWN [Israel] did not receive Him. But as many as did, whosoever they may be, are begotten of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What kind of a legitimate teacher teaches from 'revelatory understanding'? Except that Jesus doesn't say: 'hey, you were listening to me just earlier today; did you forget already?'. Instead, he mentions Nicodemus' training as a teacher of Israel (= training in the Scriptures), supporting the notion that Jesus, at the least, thought the message he was giving to Nicodemus was one already present in the Scriptures; a message that anyone who studied the Scriptures should already know.Jon

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Love your enemies!

That was in response to your Message 74, where you said:

quote:

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This strikes me as Jesus saying the He and John the Baptist and the prophets are the genuine teachers of Israel. They are speak according to the revelation of God.

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You brought up the Old Testament prophets. You're using idle speculation to try to prop up a very weak doctrine. And when Nicodemus asked if he could enter again into his mother's womb, Jesus made it plain that it was not a literal rebirth that He was talking about but one that a master of Israel ought to know about already, an Old Testament rebirth requiring constant reminders to re-examine your life. Bingo. That's what the "born again" metaphor refers to, continuing growth, not just the start of continuing growth.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

Nicodemus did know that Jesus was a teacher come from God. No one could do the signs that Jesus was doing, he said, unless God was with him.Exactly why Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus was skeptical, is open to speculation. And I can speculate just like anyone else.What is of more interest to me is the explanations of the born again experience that Jesus does give to Nicodemus. I mean why get hung up on Nicodemus's shortage of understanding, when whatever ignorance he had was remedied by the further teaching of Jesus?The chapter is filled with examples and elaborations from Jesus. Why get all hung up on what Nicodemus did not know rather than examine what Jesus was teaching him ?Even more helpful is that we have the writings of apostles who were born again and pioneered in the experience of being born again, who can help us understand what it is all about.That is assuming that the reader is really interested and is not pre-occupied with other priorities. The thread is called "Born Again".And I think Nicodemus himself probably eventually got clear. At least he is mentioned latter rather favorably compared to his clerical collegues (John 19:39), from the evangelist's point of view.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The kind of teacher that teaches about the living God teaches according to revelation. "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because in them there is no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20) The people of God are to listen to those who speak according to the word of God and have within them some light from God.

In John ch. 3 it is the event of being spiritually BORN - a one time event.And Peter says "Having BEEN regenerated ..." (1 Peter 1:23)The audience has in the past BEEN regenerated. The event took place and is part of their past.There are two places in the New Testament where "regeneration" or "regenerated" is not used in this one time event sense.In the English translation that I use, the word "regeneration" or "regenerated" has two places that I can think of where being "born again" is not specifically meant.I will not elaborate on those two instances in this post.In this post "born again" is an event. And we have the testimony of many people in history to help us understand.It may be a dramatic event. But it may also not particularly be dramatic. One may be able to point to the moment in their past when they believed they were born again.But then again, some may not be able to easily pinpoint at what moment it took place.But natural birth, coming out of the womb, is an event, so is being born again an event.Once again Peter locates the event for his audience as having taken place in their past: "Since you have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth ... having BEEN regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Peter 1:23) The Christians were born again by the living and abiding word of God. "Having been" born with a new divine life, they have continued on to purify their souls in obedience to the new indwelling life.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Do you think a man could be born again if Christ had not gone to the cross to accomplish redemption ?Do you think a man could be born again if Christ had not risen from the dead ?I think the answer to both questions is NO.In the same chapter Jesus compares Himself to the bronze serpent lifted up in the wilderness by Moses: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." (vs.14,15) It is only when the Son of Man is lifted up on His cross in His redemptive act, that man may believe and receive eternal life.To be born again is to receive eternal life. And the redemptive death on the cross, Christ being "lifted up" which made it possible for the forgiven man to now receive eternal life, if he believes.Secondly, Jesus speaks of being born of the Spirit. And John informs us that the Spirit was not yet until Christ was glorified. "Now in the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, if anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

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He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

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But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39) I don't know how they could be born of the Spirit before they received the Spirit. And they did not receive the Spirit until Jesus was glorified.Jesus was glorified starting with His resurrection (Luke 24:26)In the eyes of Jesus, the disciples would LIVE (that is the new life) because Jesus would be resurrected: "Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19) Because He lives in resurrection after He goes away for a little while, they also will live. His resurrection will enable them to be born again and have new life.He will come to them as the Spirit in His resurrection state. Their being born of the Spirit is Jesus Himself coming into them in His pneumatic form.With this Paul agrees - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .Jesus accomplished redemption for the sinner by being lifted up on the cross. And in resurrection the believers can now receive the life giving Spirit and be born of the Spirit - born again. Because He lives, we who believe into Him shall live.This "live" is not to be taken for granted. This living means living in union with the God of eternal life. It is to live God Himself. It is to live in the sphere and realm of God as divine life. "Because I live, you also shall live." We can be born again only because Christ, the last Adam, after accomplishing eternal redemption, can come into our innermost being as the life giving Spirit.To be born again is to receive a Living Person, the resurrected Christ in His form as "life giving Spirit" to give God as life into our being.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I have BEEN regenerated physically by my lunch. Lunch is part of my past but I'm expecting it to be a recurring part of my future too. Jesus Himself refered Nicodemus to the teachings of Judaism, in which renewal/rebirth/regeneration is an important theme. So yes, He suggested quite plainly that the children of Israel had been doing it for centuries before His advent. Maybe you need to rethink your position on what being "born of the spirit" means.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

Being born again in the New Testament is not "turning over a new leaf". Sorry.Being born again is not something YOU or I DO. It is something God will do in you. And if God does NOT do it in you, you can "renewal/regenerate" in any kind of humanistic or religious way you want. Your religious effort or ethical attempt at self improvement and/or self refinement will not cause you to become one of the children of God.If God does not cause you to be born again, no amount of being reminded by the Old Testament OR even the New Testament is going to accomplish the will of God in your being.The good news is that one does not have to thoroughly understand being born again in order to be born again. But one does have to believe into Jesus Christ.If you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, if you reject that He rose from the dead, and you refuse that He would be your Lord and Savior, it doesn't matter how many reminders from the Bible you remind yourself with.The destiny of the one who rejects Christ the Son of God, according to the same 3rd chapter of John, is to abide under the wrath of God. "He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (John 3:36) If you want to be born of God you better confess that your Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.You don't have to understand that much about the Jews or Israel. You do have to receive Jesus Christ into your heart as your Lord. You just open up your heart to Jesus and ask Him for the forgiveness and to come into your life as your own Lord and Savior.And you will be born of the Spirit in your spirit. And the Lord Jesus Christ will be with your spirit. As the Apostle Paul's last written words in the NT remind Timothy: "The Lord be with your spirit." (2 Tim. 4:22) In the Gospel of John the disciples were regenerated after the resurrection of Jesus and He breathed Himself into them as the Holy Spirit: In this gesture of Jesus breathing into them God caused them to receive the Holy Spirit and Jesus entered into each of them causing them to be born again right there on the spot.Today, each of do not have the priviledge of seeing a physical resurrected man Jesus Christ lean over close to us and breath into us as a gesture of Him causing us to be born again.Nevertheless, we still can partake of the very same blessed experience by inviting the Lord Jesus into our hearts as the risen Son of God, our personal Lord and personal Savior. He is faithful to His word. And as the life giving Spirit He became He will come into our spirit to give divine life - to give Himself as eternal life: "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) He eager to come into the repentent sinner. He said he who comes to Him He would in no wise cast out. So we can trust Him to keep His word. We just have to open our self from the closed self clinging position and ask the Christ to come into our lives.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Where does that leave room for freewill then? And what if you have no good reason to assume it? After all, Jesus said if you had even a minute amount of faith that you can tell mountains to throw themselves in to the sea. Since that has never happened, that leaves itself open to interpretation.Either Jesus was lying, he was mistaken, or no one has faith in Jesus... including you.

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"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This is Bible Study, not Jaywill's Assertion. The question before you is: Why did Jesus refer Nicodemus to Jewish teachings to explain what "born again" means?Nothing you have referenced has indicated a one-time magical transformation from outside.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

But a one-time magical transformation from outside is an easy sell and one hell of a lot easier then having to actually work at it day in day out for the rest of your life.You gotta admit it's an attractive product to market particularly since there is no product liability attached.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I'd buy it if I thought it would work. It's on my shopping list, right between the perpetual motion machine and the philosopher's stone.

Well, according to John 1:12,13 as many as received Him allow God to do this regeneration within them. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,

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Who were begotten not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
not of the will of man,
but of God." We can receive this One. We can believe in this One.
The new birth - the begetting is of God. If you can bring yourself to humbly confess that you want Jesus Christ to come into your heart, that will be a big enough mountain to cast into the sea for right now.Besides, the writer of the book of Hebrews says that the present day Christians "have taste the powers of the coming age." (Hebrews 6:5)There is room for the experience of faith to grow from the foretaste believers have in this age, to a fuller taste they will have in the age to come.I have sat across from people and seen them born again. I have seen this with my own eyes.God is so very willing to bring the seeker into this wonderful event.