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Author Topic:   What evidence is needed to change a creationist
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 31 of 144 (445871)
01-04-2008 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Aquilegia753
01-03-2008 7:23 PM


When typing your reply into the message box, if you look to the immediate left you'll see a help link for dBCodes. Click on the link and a page will come up describing, among other things, how to use dBCodes to produce quotes like this:
Aquilegia753 writes:
How can you say "It was once," and "You're a few billion years too late" in the same sentence like that?
Lithodid-Man has requested that this thread not be used for rebuttals (and I assume rebuttals of rebuttals) of descriptions of evidence creationists think is necessary to change their minds about evolution, so I have started a companion thread: What is needed for creationists to connect evidence to valid conclusions
--Percy

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TheDarin
Member (Idle past 5689 days)
Posts: 50
Joined: 01-04-2008


Message 32 of 144 (445893)
01-04-2008 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-24-2007 3:33 AM


What it would take for me.
When man can replicate the universe from scratch (meaning from NOTHING) and replicate what we have here now. Then I may be so inclined to worry. But even then, we would be stuck with the question "who made the man who did this."
That's for starters.
Atari cannot load or compute Windows XP; our Atari brains cannot compute God's operating system; we cannot compute "something from nothing" - ponder it, and your brain will smoke like an Atari trying to run Windows XP.
But it's fun to do and that's why this forum exists...
Edited by TheDarin, : The former line "that's why we are here" seemed to imply the purpose for life, rather than the way I restated it.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 144 (445913)
01-04-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-24-2007 3:33 AM


I've always figured that if Jesus Christ himself were to come down and explain to creationists that the theory of evolution is actually accurate, the creationists would still refuse to believe it.

He fought for the South for no reason that he could now recall, other than the same one all men fought for: because he'd been a damn fool. -- Garth Ennis

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 34 of 144 (446267)
01-05-2008 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-24-2007 3:33 AM


Creationists can and do change their minds. The 'evidence' most creationists really need is this:

One can accept the findings of science and be a good moral person and a devout Christian who remains in good standing with one's religious leaders and family and fellow members of the club.
They need to know that the coast is clear. That is is safe for them to acknowledge the findings of science.
Note that the evidence they seek is not the kind science can provide. It's a signal that has to come from the preachers and relatives and Sunday School teachers who set the boundaries in their communities. Until they see that green light, most won't budge.
_________
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 35 of 144 (446286)
01-05-2008 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Archer Opteryx
01-05-2008 2:14 PM


Creationists can and do change their minds. The 'evidence' most creationists really need is this:
One can accept the findings of science and be a good moral person and a devout Christian who remains in good standing with one's religious leaders and family and fellow members of the club.
We have always accepted the verdict of science since we were science before the Darwinian turnabout. We reject Darwinian and neo-Darwinian "science". The same is simply Atheist ideology that acts as a filter controlling the interpretation of evidence.
Ray

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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 36 of 144 (446296)
01-05-2008 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object
01-05-2008 2:54 PM


We reject Darwinian and neo-Darwinian "science".
And you Einsteinian science and Lyellian science and...well anything that that has unacceptable implications.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 37 of 144 (446304)
01-05-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object
01-05-2008 2:54 PM


We have always accepted the verdict of science since we were science before the Darwinian turnabout. We reject Darwinian and neo-Darwinian "science".
Which turns out to include such things as gravity, relativity, thermodynamics, nuclear physics, linguistics, geology, meteorology, chemistry, biochemistry, genetics, cosmology, archaeology, information theory, computer science, and any other damn thing that stands in the way of your pet delusion.
If you remove all the stuff that creationists want to be wrong about from the densely interwoven fabric of science, what's left looks like a doily woven by mad spiders.
The same is simply Atheist ideology that acts as a filter controlling the interpretation of evidence.
No, it's the result of hundreds of years of reasearch by hundreds and thousands of people, who, not being as stupid and lazy and arrogant as creationists, studied nature and learned about it --- while creationists passed the time sitting on their fat lazy arses whining and lying about anyone with the guts and the brains to face reality head-on
A tradition that I see you are keeping up.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 38 of 144 (446327)
01-05-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
01-05-2008 3:25 PM


A Relevant Joke
This appeared in my inbox recently:
A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time. So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site. She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview. "Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?"
"Morris Fishbein," he replied.
"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"
"For about 60 years."
"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"
"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims. I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop. I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults, and to love their fellow man."
"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"
"Like I'm talking to a damn wall!"
--Percy

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 39 of 144 (446461)
01-06-2008 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object
01-05-2008 2:54 PM


CFO:
We have always accepted the verdict of science since we were science before the Darwinian turnabout. We reject Darwinian and neo-Darwinian "science". The same is simply Atheist ideology that acts as a filter controlling the interpretation of evidence.
One day a prominent enough evangelical celebrity--a Graham or Dobson successor--is going to say 'You know, I don't think we should ever have made a test of fellowship about this whole evolution thing. Plenty of good, honest Christians accept it and it does no harm to their Christian faith.'
On that day, you're going to see attitudes change so fast your head will spin. Countless 'evo-gelicals' will start emerging from their closets--people who have been making their careers in biomed and the oil industry and hundreds of other areas, people who have known all along that their YEC preachers didn't really know what they were talking about, but who kept their mouths shut for the sake of peace and quiet and keeping their family's place in the pew.
On that day, Ray, your children--maybe even you yourself--will be here parroting the new party line as their own idea. They will tell us that far too much has been made of evolution, that it shouldn't be a 'test of fellowship' among Christians. And they will think themselves very tolerant and accepting and Christian for taking the attitude they take.
Don't believe me? Check the profound shift in attitude toward divorce that fundamentalists and evangelicals exhibited in just one generation. People in second and third marriages went from being ostracized in the 1970s to being welcomed with no questions asked in the 1990s. The Scriptures didn't change. The preachers did.
Fundies are far more adaptable than they are given credit for. The entire herd can turn on a dime once its leaders give the signal.
______
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

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Volunteer
Junior Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 21
From: Tennessee
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 40 of 144 (447172)
01-08-2008 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-24-2007 3:33 AM


How about if we could get the scientific community to agree? If evolution were a fact, proven beyond doubt,or even a convincing theory, we could not possibly expect to see thousands of reputable scientists rejecting it outright. The fact that a lesser number of scientists reject evolution is not the issue here, as some evolutionists maintain.The issue is that thousands of credible scientists would not deny the theory of evolution if it were a proven fact. Something else, then, must account for belief in evolution, something other than the scientific data.
Two or three examples are in order at this time. Molecular biologist and medical doctor Michael Denton - "Ultimately the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more nor less than the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century." Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
(Bethesda, Md: Adler & Adler Publishers, Inc. 1986), p.358.
Dr. Louis Bounoure, Director of the Zoological Museum and Director of Research at the National Center of Scientific Research in France -
"Evolution is a fairy tale for grownups." J. Rostand,"La Mode et la vie," October 1963, p. 31 from V. Long,"Evolution:A Fairy Tale for Adults," Homiletic and Pastoral Review, Vol 78 (1978), No.7,pp27-32.
Arthur L. Schawlow, winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics. When confronted with the marvels of life and the universe,"The only possible answers are religious... I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life." Arthur L. Schawlow," One Must Ask Why and Not Just How?" in Henry Margenan and Roy Abraham Varghese, Cosmos, Bios, Theos: Scientists Reflect on Science, God, and the origins of the Universe, Life, and Homo Sapiens (La Salle, Il: Open court, 1994),p105.
Now when you start your ridicule, as evolunists always do, remember these are not my words, heaven knows I'm not bright enough to do anything other than to have faith in the ideas of one group of scientists or the other. I choose the Creationists. You choose to have faith in the evolutionists, unless you're one of the scientists quoted in the scientific journals. So there we are, you are not going to change your belief system nor am I.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 43 by cavediver, posted 01-08-2008 2:12 PM Volunteer has not replied
 Message 44 by Granny Magda, posted 01-08-2008 2:31 PM Volunteer has not replied
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Phalanx
Member (Idle past 5712 days)
Posts: 31
From: Old Bridge, NJ, US
Joined: 10-12-2006


Message 41 of 144 (447177)
01-08-2008 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Volunteer
01-08-2008 12:33 PM


Evolution cannot be a fact. Just as the theory of gravitation cannot be a fact. They are scientific theories. While they are generally accepted as facts, I don't believe they constitute the facts that you are thinking of. To be honest, I find your assertion that thousands of scientists do not believe in evolution to be dubious, at best. If you would provide a source for this claim, I would gladly change my position on this.
As far as what Denton and Bounoure, those particular quotes are decades old now. I'm not too sure I regard their expertise as I've never heard of them.
As for Schawlow, I think it is rather deleterious of you to be quoting a scientist who is well out of his realm. A physicist knows about as much about biology as an undergrad who is studying that field.
Edited by Phalanx, : grammatical errors.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 42 of 144 (447191)
01-08-2008 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Volunteer
01-08-2008 12:33 PM


Do scientists reject evolution?
If evolution were a fact, proven beyond doubt,or even a convincing theory, we could not possibly expect to see thousands of reputable scientists rejecting it outright.
Relative to the totality of scientists, very few actually reject evolution.
Sure, some do. If his religion is opposed to evolution, it is relatively easy for a physicist or a computer scientist (to name just two) to reject evolution. For his own science does not depend on it, and he has had no real need to study evolution. Among geologists and biologists, where every day scientific work is related to evolution and its evidence, you will find very few who reject evolution.
Molecular biologist and medical doctor Michael Denton - "Ultimately the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more nor less than the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century." Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
(Bethesda, Md: Adler & Adler Publishers, Inc. 1986), p.358.
A quote from a review of a more recent Denton book: "From the impossibility of evolution to the inevitability of evolution: Anti-Evolutionst Michael Denton turns into an 'Evolutionist'.

Let's end the political smears

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 43 of 144 (447202)
01-08-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Volunteer
01-08-2008 12:33 PM


two or three examples are in order at this time.
So your first, Michael Denton, now uses evolution to demonstrate purpose and the hand of God in the Universe (a review of a more recent Denton book provided by nwr)
Your second, Dr. Louis Bounoure, was never "Director of the Zoological Museum and Director of Research at the National Center of Scientific Research in France" and never actually made that quote 300 Creationist Lies
And your third, Arthur L. Schawlow, doesn't express any opinion on evolution at all, merely his need for the divine in the Universe - that's cool, it's the view of many theistic scientists (who have no problem with the theory of evolution)
You wouldn't have another three, would you???

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 44 of 144 (447203)
01-08-2008 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Volunteer
01-08-2008 12:33 PM


Thousands of credible scientists reject evolution? I think you're going to have to demonstrate that if you want to avoid "ridicule".
Volunteer writes:
heaven knows I'm not bright enough to do anything other than to have faith in the ideas of one group of scientists or the other. I choose the Creationists. You choose to have faith in the evolutionists
Speak for yourself mate.
You may consider yourself to be insufficiently bright to evaluate evidence, but, without wishing to appear arrogant, I'm quite bright enough, thank you. I may not understand all the evidence that supports evolution, but given time and patience, I reckon I could wrap my head around whatever I needed to, and more to the point, so could you!. Don't sell yourself short my friend. Some of the evidence for evolution is complex, sure. Some of it is counter-intuitive. But everything you really need to know can be comprehended with just a little effort. Just sit down, do some research, take it bit by bit, and you'll get there. You might start by taking a look at RAZD's thread, Evolution and the Big Lie, where you will find a useful, step-by-step explanation of what we mean by evolution. Even if you don't agree with what is being said, at least you might have a better understanding of what it is that you disagree with.
By the way, I like that picture of George Burns you're using as your avatar!

Mutate and Survive

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 45 of 144 (447223)
01-08-2008 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Volunteer
01-08-2008 12:33 PM


Volunteer
Now when you start your ridicule, as evolunists always do, remember these are not my words, heaven knows I'm not bright enough to do anything other than to have faith in the ideas of one group of scientists or the other. I choose the Creationists. You choose to have faith in the evolutionists, unless you're one of the scientists quoted in the scientific journals. So there we are, you are not going to change your belief system nor am I.
I don't have FAITH in evolution, I accept evolution. Faith implies a belief in a particular ideal which needs no proof. I accept evolution and reject creation due to the fact that evolution has a lot of credible research to gain a proper prospective rather that creation's relying on a 4000+ year old myth.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

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