Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?

You're contradicting God. He told Cain that if we do well we will be accepted. He didn't say He was setting us up to fail.

are you assuming that God talks the same way today as He did with Cain? Progressive Dispensationalists would beg to differ. Gods principles never change, but the way that He deals with humans has...if you will pardon the term, evolved.

Yea it seems right about the time we got video cameras he stopped, showing up in person or a talking burning bush, he stopped throwing boulders at enemy armies, stopped stopping the earth's rotation so his chosen people would have more time to kill ......i guess hes camera shy or he would pop up at the super bowl one night and tell the world who's got it right the old testament jews, the new testament Christians, the new new testament Muslims, the Marsian testament Mormons ....

You answered your own question:

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Gods principles never change, but the way that He deals with humans has...

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The principle that we can resist evil hasn't changed.

And how do we resist it? The Bible tells us... Are you suggesting that if we believed that the lamb was fictional and symbolic and all we did was hand out spare change and help old ladies empty their trash we would have a shining testimony? I might agree with you if I were convinced that God didnt care whether He was mentioned in our testimony or not....but I feel that He wants to be mentioned because by glorifying Him we are better people than simply glorifying our Cub Scout list of good deeds.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

One day at a time.

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Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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It probably isn't significant but I like the way the Revelation is narrated in the past tense. The "prophet" doesn't talk about something that will happen in the future; he talks about something he saw happening.You seem to be another foolish virgin who's so anxious to see Jesus coming that you don't notice He's already here.

Haha Phat you are too kind. I don't claim to have any advice for wiser minds. Just thought I'd stop by, wish everyone happy holidays, see if Jar is still brilliant, you know .But I'll do my best to stay on-topic. I think this is an interesting one for sure. I'm coming into it a bit late, but I'd love to throw some things out there. A great question, one that makes sense to ask considering the circumstances of Christ's death. I have been through some of this thread, but not the whole thing so if I'm rehashing things just let me know and I'll sit back down It seems to me that in order to ask this question, we need to backpedal and ask a few bigger-picture questions. The reason being: Trying to answer a clearly biblically-based question is to assume that the Bible is a legitimate source of reference. Asking if the crucifixion was "all part of God's plan" is to assume that, by the nature of the question, there is a God. Therefore I am going to assume we are talking about The bible within the context that it can be trusted, since you inferred that it can with your question.My questions:- Was Jesus a real historical figure?
- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously? Assuming the Bible is a reliable source, what are some things he said about himself that confirm his testimony?
- If he wasn't, why even ask about the crucifixion?
- If God did not plan the crucifixion, and it just "happened," how would that affect christianity?Again, excuse me if I'm treading lukewarm water here, but I believe in order to ask a question like that, some things have to be established, you know? - RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Again, I don't mean to detract from the ongoing conversation, so if that's what I'm doing call me out. Awesome. So. If we're saying that Jesus is not only a real historical figure, but that the things he said can be trusted (or at least for the sake of the argument), all we can do to answer the question is look at what Jesus says himself.We find the story in John 10:14-18. Jesus has just healed a man born blind on the Jewish Sabbath, causing the Jewish religious sect known as the "Pharisees" to freak out and not only cast this healed man out of the temple, but redouble their efforts to destroy Jesus. These scriptures are Jesus speaking to those same Pharisees after calling them blind, trying to help them understand the reality of his mission. I won't claim to have the wisdom to try and exegesis here, it's much too easy to read my own beliefs into the text. But I think it is fair to say that here we get to see Jesus basically answer our question.What does the text say? -Raph

Assuming that Jesus was a real historical figure, there is no reason to think he was any more truthful - or more honest in self-assessment - than any other historical figure.

Its too funny around here, Raphael. One day we will attempt to quote biblical text (usually from John) and the critics will say that redactors actually wrote the book and that the text reflects that bias...another day we will attempt to explain the meaning of what God meant to say and our critics will use the very same Bible that they rejected and show us "what the text says." The christianity that is pushed here is mainly a works based humanist based ideology that does not lean on God for anything other than to tell us that we are responsible for helping humanity and will be judged accordingly.(Matthew 25 again) jar preaches:

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I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.

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which I wouldnt be so concerned about except that he insists that most Christians will be goats. He has little investment in the idea of Christ atoning for us. Having been raised around many Jews, he embraces the idea that atonement is our responsibility. Ringo is his "robin" (he is batman) and wholeheartedly agrees with him.I love the people who are here, but the theology frustrates me...they simply won't embrace the power of the resurrection.

Gotcha. A fair assessment . So if, by that train of thought, Jesus is no more credible or invalid as any other historical figure, and the question is "was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?" we see him answering the question here, in his own words. I think we try to overcomplicate things sometimes I know I sure have.In the same way, we could take the words of another historical figure, Napoleon Bonaparte, and asses his values.

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Women are nothing but machines for producing children.
  —Napoleon Bonaparte

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No way am I smart enough to have that quote memorized haha. The power of Google. But. If we're merely looking at Jesus as a historical figure, then what he says should tell us a lot about who he is, and what his mission was. Who does he seem to be to you? Haha. Phat my friend, our problem is we get into unnecessary arguments. We try and argue the little things, the details, and we try to do it on the non-believer's terms. We try to prove the existence of God with science. I know I have tried. Which is a paradox because science cannot prove the existence of a "great other." That's not its job. It only can tell us what we can observe, hypothesize, and/or test. When it really comes down to it, belief in something outside of ourselves takes one thing: faith. That's really it haha. Sure there's evidence, sure there's history, sure there's personal experience, but it really just comes down to the question: will you believe in something incredible? Something that, in reality, doesn't make sense? For me, believing has changed my life. My God is to be trusted. But that's subjective . Haha. And that's the fun of it buddy. I love all you guys! It's been awhile, but it's fun to see the names from years ago here. I'd rather keep up the debates, maintain that camaraderie, than be a jerk and try and convert everyone. Jesus does the heartstring thing. So it's chilll Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Some say that he was sent to teach us how to live.Others believe that He was sent to die...becoming a once and forever atonement of humanities shortcomings. Thus Jesus would be an example for us not only in how he lived, but in how He died. They did not take His life. He gave it.

Jesus was this message. Remember the parable of the owner of the vineyard? They killed his son, too.God never demanded that Jesus be sacrificed. God foreknew that humans would be stupid enough to kill him, though. Before Jesus came, GOD was unable to communicate to humans...not due to His inability but due to our inability. We were just ants. GOD had to send an ant to tell the ants some things. If Hell exists, we would have lacked the intelligence and trust to get out of hell ourselves. So yes, salvation was a free gift.I don't see why you think this causes us to be slackers in regards to daily personal responsibility. Its almost like you are like a kid learning to ride his two wheeler. He doesn't want Daddy to help hold him up...he wants to show daddy that He can do it.

You could say the same about John Dillinger or Charles Manson and it would be equally meaningless. Atonement is a really stupid concept.