Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries

And believing something "wtih all your heart" isn't saving faith either. Real faith is blood, sweat and tears. Context, you say?

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Matthew 7:20-21 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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Jesus was talking specificlly about getting into heaven - by doing the will of His father. You really don't own a mirror, do you? I'm not the one who is judging anybody in this thread. I already quoted it once; here it is again:

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Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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Maybe three times is a charm:

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Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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Not at all. I'm not saying anything "must" be true. I'm just saying that in this specific case, it is.Since the "faith" refered to here manifests as good deeds, the good deeds are evidence of that faith, regardless of motive. If there's only one entrance to the room, anybody in the room came in thorugh that entrance.

I believe the standard bad answer to Matthew quotes is "That stuff was for Jews. Faith does not use that, to her credit.

Doesn't that about do it Faith? If everything you say can be identified as one of Christ teachings, then how can referring to that as a definition not catch everything?For Christians Christ is the Foundation. Period. In fact, I'd define Christianity in exactly those terms. You are free to identify your favorite parts as foundational, but surely doing so risks ending up in the goat pile despite your best intentions.

You are reading out of context, wrongly "dividing the word of truth" which scripture tells us we must be careful to avoid.Up to Matthew 7:20 Jesus is addressing the dangers brought into the churches by false teachers. He says twice that we shall know THEM by their fruits. He's talking ONLY about the false prophets or teachers.From Matthew 7:21 he is talking about people who make a false profession of faith, calling Jesus "Lord" but not living according to God's ways. This is another subject. We are not told anything here about judging anybody by their fruits. That, again, refers to the false teachers.And again I've over and over affirmed that good deeds must follow faith, but in this case He's talking about having a false faith to begin with. We must call Him "Lord" but if He is really our Lord we will obey Him.Sorry, not seeing anything in your post that speaks to the points I made.

But there isn't only one entrance to the room. Some come in by the door of faith and do good deeds, which evidences their faith; but others come in by the door of self-will and do good deeds though the lack of faith may not be apparent. Still the source is different.

Faith you know that I respect you and your faith but I do not quite see eye to eye with you on this point. Here's why:

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Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:12

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Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:1-2

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For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous personthough perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. - Romans 5:6-9

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What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my[e] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. - Matt. 18:12-14

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and of course,

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For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

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It is pretty clear that God loves the world, and has justified the entire world. This is a theme throughout the entire Bible, from creation. The human race has been declared righteous, not through works, but simply because of the grace of God. It is His character to love, and so He does, through becoming human and dying. This, I would argue, is the penultimate example of love for the entire world and is the theme of salvation.To say that Jesus does not love "religious leaders who mislead people with their corruptions" does not make sense at all, looking at the character of God revealed throughout the Bible and in the character of Christ. This does not mean however, that they will inherit the Kingdom.I think this is where we're disconnecting, or you saw some sort of mistake in my previous post. Jesus can love all of mankind sure, but sometimes love means leaving people to their decisions. This is the loving rather than wrathful thing to do, and I agree with you that many corrupted religious leaders will not inherit the kingdom. But because they will be destroyed is not sufficient reason to say they are not loved by God. God is love (1 Jhn. 4:8). Well again, "power hungry religionists" are broken sinners. If Jesus did not die for every child molester, murderer, rapist, liar, hypocrite, hateful human being than salvation means nothing. Its not really up to us to choose who God loves, unfortunately. Scripture certainly tells us that it is God's nature to love though, and his people's job to be His hands in the world, aka, do the actual loving instead of placing religionists into boxes because we don't like their sin. It's pretty much what they would do, and not really a balanced perspective.Hope that makes sense!- RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Not sure where to begin on your post, Raphael. Maybe with saying you seem to be confused about the difference between sheep and wolves. The sheep are the cute woolly ones that aren't very bright and go ba-a-a-a while the wolves are the lean and hungry ones with the big teeth.Or maybe I could start by saying that scripture is clear that God does NOT love everyone as you claim, because He says in Romans 9:13 ... Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. God IS love but love hates what violates love.And I feel like repeating that Jesus did call the Pharisees vipers and asked how they could escape Hell with their attitudes.The passages you quote, about Jesus going after His lost sheep and how He died for sinners and how "we" have been justified by faith and so on, refer to the sheep that Jesus died for, not the wolves that want to eat the sheep. Those who ARE sheep, those who have been justified, have repented and put trust in Him and now belong to His flock.They do not include the "power-hungry religionists" I was talking about who have already broken into the sheepfold and set up shop with their sheepskins barely camouflaging their big teeth. Those are the ones with the tiaras and red robes and the televangelists that tell you to send them money and all the false teachers that have formed the various cults that are taking people to Hell and many others that are already INSIDE the churches. They COULD have chosen salvation but they chose power and corruption instead. No they are not. They are ravening wolves who prey on the sheep. Sure He did but the way they get saved is by repenting from all that, with true regret and desire to change and make restitution, putting all trust in Him. That is not what ravening wolves do. They get into the church and devour the flock. Sure, a wolf COULD repent and be saved, but I'm talking about the ones who don't. "Power hungry religionists" are what some people INSIDE the church are. But we can judge from His word the difference between repentant sinners and unrepentant church leaders whose fruit is evil. We are told by Jesus Himself to do this. Religionists are false Christians, Raphael, they are not repentant sinners like true Christians -- repeat, they are UNrepentant -- they are false Christians, they are frauds, they are fleecers of the flock and power-mad tyrants, disguised as harmless sheep of course, and we are warned to learn how to identify them and expose them and warn the flock away from them.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : trying to break my habit of capitalizing words for emphasisEdited by Faith, : No reason given.

You're drawing a line where there is none in Matthew. The entire passage is about people who pretend they are Jesus' followers but are not. Jesus draws no distinction between the false teachers and the lip-service-payers. That's what I'm saying. A faith in Jesus being the Son of God and dying on the cross to save you is a false faith. The only true faith is in doing.

You misunderstand the metaphor. The entrance is the good deeds. Paul said himself that faith without works is dead; there is no entrance by faith alone. And it doesn't matter whether you came down the hallway from the left or the right. There's only one way in.

Then it's a meaningless metaphor, has nothing to do with the reality.

I would word this differently. The only true faith is the one that leads to doing. But you seem to arguing exactly the point you denied you were arguing when I accused you of asserting the converse.

You're wrong. There is a new paragraph indicated and the commentators deal with the topics as separate. It's clear enough from context anyway. Sorry you are wrong. The lip service people are only harming themselves, Jesus is warning about the false teachers up through verse 20 because they can harm others. That's the exact opposite of what scripture teaches, in fact that's blasphemy and the road to Hell for sure. "Faith in doing" is that very attitude of thinking you can make yourself righteous that is condemned, rather than depending on Christ for your righteousness which is the gospel. It's self-righteousness, it's pride in self, the "something of which to boast" that Paul says is excluded. It's earning your way to heaven. Can't be done.======Luther had the honesty to know he couldn't be righteous enough for heaven. That's what finally led him to see what Paul is REALLY saying, that we can't be saved by our own efforts and must be saved by Christ as a gift of free grace.You need to study Paul.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Tell it to Jesus.

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Matthew 7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

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Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

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I'd call it a fairly important metaphor.

Fair enough. Allow me to repeat: The converse is true in this case.