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Author | Topic: Religious Conversions | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chuck77 Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: and deserved to be pulled up on both the claim and the manner in which it was made. I got this article from a magazine I like. It's a pretty prominant magazine in Christian circles. "Evangelists Say Muslims Coming to Christ at Historic Rate"
Christians ministering quietly in the Middle East say Muslims are coming to Christ at an unprecedented pace despite intense persecution of those who leave Islam. "Probably in the last 10 years, more Muslims have come to faith in Christ than in the last 15 centuries of Islam," said Tom Doyle, Middle East-Central Asia director for e3 Partners, a Texas-based missions agency. Reference: http://www.charismamag.com/...ing-to-christ-at-historic-rate There is much more to the article. I would appreciate it if you read the whole thing. This of course in not "proof" or "evidence" that more muslims are converting to christianity than the other way around. Rahvin makes a good point when he said:Rahvin writes: The question "which occurs more, conversions from Islam to Christianity, or Christianity to Islam" is a quantitative question, and this means that the only way to answer it is quantitatively. We need numbers. Until we get those numbers, we can make predictions, but we cannot draw conclusions. Our best answer without a good statistical survey is quote simply "I don't know." And
Rahvin writes: If I ask if there are more apples or oranges in a basket, you don't ask people for their testimonials on whether they like apples or oranges better. You don;t search online for pictures of apple orchards or orange groves. If the basket is available, you count the oranges and the apples and let the numbers tell you which is larger. If the basket is not available and you can't see it to count, you have no way of knowing, and the best answer is "I don't know." And you've said basically the same things. So, I agree, I don't know for sure, you're right. I believe they are tho. It is my belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" i've seen/come across in the years i've been a Christian that more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Chuck77 writes:
Ok, that's all well and good, but the first comment made under the article you linked says this:
And you've said basically the same things. So, I agree, I don't know for sure, you're right. I believe they are tho. It is my belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" i've seen/come across in the years i've been a Christian that more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. quote:Now, I don't think he has any more evidence than you do for this claim, but I'm sure it is his "belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" [he's] seen/come across in the years". So again, we are left with the question: How am I, as an outsider, to determine which one of you is correct?
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
Huntard writes: So again, we are left with the question: How am I, as an outsider, to determine which one of you is correct? I can message you all the info I know of, we can talk to people i've talked to, you can go to church with me this week if you like. We can do a missions trip with a missionary team reporting these findings and so on and so forth. Likewise, you can do the same with the muslim claiming the same things as me. You choose who you then think has more credibility, Or choose neither. The same subjective evidence that these people see in why they are converting is available to you just as it was to them. I guess talking to a real convert would be a good start.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Chuck77 writes:
Well, I happen to know a Christian to Muslim convert, yet no Muslim to Christian convert. However, I'd say this is all irrelevant. My point was more to show that this "subjective evidence" you keep citing, is pretty worthless if you don't already believe certain things. For example, the Muslim convert will tell me one thing, and I'm pretty sure the Christian convert will more or less tell me the same thing. That's the problem with subjective evidence,it can work in any situation, for any viewpoint. So when I, as an outsider, who holds no viewpoint on the matter, do as you suggest, for both sides of the matter, I'll be left scratching my head and wondering why either of you believe a you do, because clearly, it's not the evidence, being equal in both cases. I can message you all the info I know of, we can talk to people i've talked to, you can go to church with me this week if you like. We can do a missions trip with a missionary team reporting these findings and so on and so forth. Likewise, you can do the same with the muslim claiming the same things as me. You choose who you then think has more credibility, Or choose neither. The same subjective evidence that these people see in why they are converting is available to you just as it was to them. I guess talking to a real convert would be a good start. And this interests me, I wonder how someone, even with a lack of "real" evidence, can, with such certainty, make statements like you did in the other thread "there are more Muslim converts than there are Christian ones". If instead you would have said, "it is my strong belief, based on "subjective" evidence, that there are more Muslim converts than Christian ones", I think people would've just said "Yes, well, ok, sure, but that's a belief based on "nothing", so we can just dismiss it and move along". But you didn't. You made it a statement of fact. Now why was that? That is what really interests me in these cases.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member
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Huntard writes: And this interests me, I wonder how someone, even with a lack of "real" evidence, can, with such certainty, make statements like you did in the other thread "there are more Muslim converts than there are Christian ones". If instead you would have said, "it is my strong belief, based on "subjective" evidence, that there are more Muslim converts than Christian ones", I think people would've just said "Yes, well, ok, sure, but that's a belief based on "nothing", so we can just dismiss it and move along". But you didn't. You made it a statement of fact. Now why was that? That is what really interests me in these cases. Congratulations dude! I knew it wouldn't be long before someone still chose to say "BUT YOU SAID"!! although I wasn't sure who it would be. Im sorry man. I feel I can't really have a normal discussion with people who still insist upon talking advantage of my humbleness and honesty. Is this not the point of debate? I already admitted what I said was incorrect and CLEARLY admitted such. BUT, for some reason still, that is not enough im noticing here for some. All I can say is re-read what I actually said in this comment Message 76 And then this comment Message 78 It answers all of your questions you just asked. Im not sure how you missed it and im sorry you feel the need to press me for more when I feel I already gave enough. Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
But if you want to debate more just for the sake of debating sure.
What I think now tho, is that we would be debating "subjective evidence", which we just did on another thread, which lead us to here.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Chuck77 writes:
I wasn't trying to pin you on that Chuck, I was trying to explain where my resistance to you using those terms came from. It is not a resistance to your belief, it is a resistance to a tendency, at least, in this case, to cite belief as fact. I certainly don't care what kind of things you believe, but to present that belief as fact is not warranted in my view. And now I'm asking you why did present them as fact, because I want to understand the reasoning behind it.
Congratulations dude! I knew it wouldn't be long before someone still chose to say "BUT YOU SAID"!! although I wasn't sure who it would be. Im sorry man. I feel I can't really have a normal discussion with people who still insist upon talking advantage of my humbleness and honesty.
I wasn't taking advantage, I was explaining my thoughts. In fact, I thank you for your humbleness for essentially admitting that the quote as made originally was probably not the right way to put it. All I was trying to do was caution you on future instances of this happening, and trying to find out why you did as you did, to understand the psyche and thought processes of a believer, if you will.
Is this not the point of debate? I already admitted what I said was incorrect and CLEARLY admitted such. BUT, for some reason still, that is not enough im noticing here for some.
No no, you got it all wrong. It is enough, in fact, I think it's a very brave thing, to admit you were wrong. I merely wondered why you thought you could make the claim as you did in the first place, I don't understand how. If it was an honest mistake, ok, sure. It's just that I notice a lot of these mistakes when talking to some believers. I wonder why they make the claims in such a manner. Is it, perhaps, because they view essentially everything they believe as fact?
It answers all of your questions you just asked. Im not sure how you missed it and im sorry you feel the need to press me for more when I feel I already gave enough.
Well, it doesn't answer the why though, in my opinion. Perhaps I am wrong here, but I don't see why you thought you could make that claim as though it was a fact. I'm not riding you on you doing so, I'm looking for the reason why you did so. I'm trying to understand the reasoning process here.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Chuck77 writes:
Always happy to debate
But if you want to debate more just for the sake of debating sure. What I think now tho, is that we would be debating "subjective evidence", which we just did on another thread, which lead us to here.
What I think I'm looking for is I think a reason to value "subjective evidence". Why do you think it is so valuable, when, in my view, it can be used to support contradictory claims? But perhaps this is not the thread to so.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: IMHO, religious wars occur when NAMES are used as the fulcrum test of belief in God. It becomes, MY GOD IS GREATER THAN YOUR GOD. Had no names been attached, as with Christianity and Islam - the only two religions which demand right of exclusiveity by virtue of names attached, the political corruptions would have given religion a better image. It remains a mystery why an indescribable and indefinable universe maker should be tampered with names.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Chuck writes: I got this article from a magazine I like. It's a pretty prominant magazine in Christian circles. "Evangelists Say Muslims Coming to Christ at Historic Rate" Link writes: The following logic is what is contributing to the alarming conversion rate among Christians to Islam. Why Christians Convert to Islam Link writes: Below a collection of converts' stories which are enlightening, heart-warming and inspiring in equal measure. These new Muslims come from a variety of backgrounds. They include intellectuals, scientists, priests, Rabbis, missionaries, and artists, young and old, famous and laypersons, from around the globe. Most of these converts are former Christians or from a Christian background. These testimonies only represent a drop in the ocean however, since every day hundreds of people convert to Islam all around the world. Amongst the most powerful and thought-provoking testimonies are those of former Christian priests and missionaries who have discovered the one true religion. This is a tremendous challenge to Christian missionaries. Instead of spending $500 millions trying to convert poor and sick Muslims, they should concentrate their efforts on their own people! Link Etc. So what we have are Christian sources claiming that Moslems are converting to Christianity in droves and Islamic sources claiming that masses of Christians are doing the opposite. Meanwhile we have the Guinness Book of records (a rather poor but at least non-partisan source) describing Islam as the most converted to religion. What we don't have is any actual data on which any such statistical claim can be meaningfully made (I would like to see how the Guinness Book of records came to their conclusion before I accepted it). In short we don't really have any meaningful evidence at all.
Chuck writes: It is my belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" i've seen/come across in the years i've been a Christian that more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. And the Islamic sources above would say the exact same but opposite thing. Such is the futility of drawing any conclusion at all on the basis of such "evidence".
Chuck writes: It is my belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" i've seen/come across in the years i've been a Christian that more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. I never doubted your belief or conviction. That you believed what you were saying was true wasn't really in doubt. When I asked "Is that actually true?" in response to your initial claim I wasn't asking if you really believed it. I was asking if it was true. In response you kicked off with all sorts of belligerent nonsense. And me being me I wasn't going to take that as anything other than some sort of challenge. Which is why I started this thread. So where are we now? What have we learned?
Chuck writes: So, I agree, I don't know for sure, you're right. I believe they are tho. You believe on the basis of some testimonials you find personally convincing and on the basis of some highly partisan sources to which you have an obvious subjective allegiance. Likewise numerous Moslems believe the exact opposite to you on the exact same "evidential" basis. So what (I think) we have learned is the following: 1) Some religions consider it some sort of vindication of their veracity over other religions as to how many people convert. This is essentially the fallacy of Argumentum ad Populum 2) The ardent followers of some religions are highly prone to drawing very firm conclusions on the basis of forms of evidence that are wholly unreliable. Utter conviction is derived from testimonials and sources which produce material so partisan it would be called "propaganda" in other contexts. In short many of the ardently faithful live in a sort of evidential bubble. They hear testimonies and are exposed to sources that confirm everything they believe. And the more their beliefs are confirmed the more incredulous they become that their beliefs are not as self-evidently correct as they believe them to be. How could people exposed to the truth possibly be converting away from rather, than towards, truths which are so obviously true to me? Meanwhile they fail to realise that the exact same but opposite claims are being made with equal conviction by those who live in a different theological bubble. I say - Pop the bubbles.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Then I suggest we all just call Him Cyril.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2
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And you've said basically the same things. So, I agree, I don't know for sure, you're right. I believe they are tho. It is my belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" i've seen/come across in the years i've been a Christian that more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. But Chuck, the evidence you've posted is not subjective. That's not the problem at all. Sure, your subjective opinions on the veracity of Christianity caused you to make the prediction that there are more Christian converts than Muslim, but you actually did post some evidence. The problem is simply that it wasn't very useful evidence. You even posted what was very close to quantitative evidence - we can count up the number of conversion testimonials and get a number! Those testimonials aren't subjective. Regardless of the observer, a person saying "I converted to Christianity from Islam" is exactly that. The fatal flaw, the reason your evidence is insufficient to draw a conclusion, is that it's just not thorough - it's statistically insignificant. For an unbiased comparison (and by "bias" I don't only mean yours or mine or anyone else's based on pre-existing opinions; I mean looking only at specific areas, or only at online testimonials, or only at English sources, etc) you need a truly blind, random survey. You need to get a sample that is actually likely to represent the entire global population - and that, of course, is very difficult to do. The evidence is not what's subjective here. What's subjective is the weight you're assigning to evidence that simply doesn't justify it. You quoted my analogy about determining whether there were more apples or oranges in a basket. Imagine, then, that the actual question is "are there more apples or oranges in the entire world?" Now, in that case we might actually have some data. Merchants tend to keep pretty good records, and we can see how many apples and oranges are bought and sold. It won;t be all of them, but it would be a very good sample. But what if I only used the apples and oranges I personally see? I live in California - there are literally dozens, maybe hundreds of orange trees lining the streets of the city where I live, with no apples in sight outside of the grocery store. My personal experience is good at giving me a rough estimate for the area in which I live, but it's no good at all at providing a sample of the entire world. This is a basic bias in the human mind - what we individually observe and hear about through anecdote is given more weight in our animal brains than statistical numbers. And a few thousand years ago, when "the whole world" really was restricted to your own tribe's typical hunting ground, this was just fine. But our awareness of the world has grown far, far beyond what you or I will ever individually experience first or even second-hand. I'll never, ever see every orange grove and apple orchard in the world. I'll never be able to directly observe enough apples and oranges to be able to gain an internal sense of whether there are more of one than the other. Instead I have to rely on data, and ignore the "gut" part of me that says "well, I've seen a lot more oranges than apples..." So too with conversions. As individuals, we won;t even hear about all of the conversions that happen within our own city limits, let alone the world. Our personal, anecdotal experience, even when supplemented by second- and third-hand accounts through the individual experiences of others through magazines and the internet, just isn't enough to get even a fuzzy picture of the global reality. That "gut" part of you says "Christianity is the Truth, so there should be more converts to Christianity," and "I've heard about more Christian conversions than Muslim," and the two "confirm" each other in your brain. Your "gut" feeling is that you've found the answer... ...even though there is no possible way you could ever use those limited observations as representative of the global whole. That's all this is. Our "gut feelings" are often right in our personal experiences. Our personal experiences help us make snap decisions in the environments we're familiar with. But when dealing with an actually mysterious question, one for which the answer is not known and where we don't even have the right information to figure it out right now, those experiences and our "gut" feelings are actually worse than useless, because they'll make us draw a conclusion before we have any right to. And when we do, those unfounded conclusions are no better than a random guess.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Chuck77 writes: It is my belief/conviction based on the subjective "evidence" i've seen/come across in the years i've been a Christian that more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. It would be impossible to know. Muslims in nations practicing Shariah law go under a death sentence for doing so. Perhaps many are secret Christians for that reason. Since Christians are severely persecuted in the majority of fundamentalist Muslim nations, many would be converts to Christianity refrain. Family members can persecute or kill them. Christian missionaries are forbidden or severely restricted in most Muslim nations. Christians sometimes convert to Islam so as to avoid persecution or death. Shariah law is not imposed upon Muslims in places like the US and Britain because the percentage of population has not yet reached the point of implementing it. My understanding is that once 30% or so become Muslim, Islam begins pressure to implement it. Muslims have an extremely higher birth rate than Christians globally. Every newborn is essentially a convert to be considered a Muslim for life. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Just a bump for Chuck to see if he'd like to respond.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 802 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Shariah law is not imposed upon Muslims in places like the US and Britain because the percentage of population has not yet reached the point of implementing it. My understanding is that once 30% or so become Muslim, Islam begins pressure to implement it. No, Buz. It's is because our constitution forbids it. The US could be 98% Muslim and still not be run by sharia law. Just like as for as many christians that want this to be a christian nation, our constituion forbids it, but you lot try and try."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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