The War On Terror Will End When.........

There was a time when the advancement of militant Christianity was happening globally. Christianity has, for the most part, backed off the whole "convert or die, even if we have to torture you" bit.I did read the doctrinal statements, Buz, and while those statements are relevant for a great many Muslims, there are many Muslims for whom those statements are irrelevant. On top of that, current doctrine can be changed in the future, as it has with Christianity.Again, there are other ways for this "War on Terror" to end that do not concern the end of the world. I already gave several, Buz. For alternative religious ends, the Flying Spaghetti Monster could annihilate the world in preparation of creating it again next Thursday. Or Ragnarok could happen. But that all went over your head, apparently.For real-world solutions, look at the reasons the youth of Iraq are becoming disenfranchised: they blame Islam, most especially the form followed by the more extreme sects, for the violence in their country. While the US is responsible for a great deal of the damage and death there, there is ethnic cleansing happening as we speak. Hell, part of the reason for the recent decreases in violence is that the ethnic cleansing has been nearly completed in many areas - the Sunnis and Shias are now separated into segregated neighborhoods.As people continue to see that their religious zeal directly results in the deaths of their families, the younger generations can continue to turn away from the methods and beliefs of the previous generation. Are you denying that the Christian position globally is to force the world to be subjected to Jesus and Christianity both past and present?For fuck's sake Buz, your own religion went through very similar phases in the past, but for the most part moved on to nonviolent (if still annoying) means of conversion instead of the "accept Christ or we'll burn you alive" tactic. Do you honestly not accept the possibility of Islam doing the same? Particularly when a great many moderate Muslims already exist?

What the eye observes is what is to be processed by the frontal lobes of our brains. The eye observes the real world. Your eyes need to focus in on what is observed so that your brain can process into your mindset what is a militant frenzied host of Islamic nations full of citizenry who have had this ideology programmed into their minds all of their lives from little children. Nobody takes these people seriously but themselves who know what they want and will sacrifice everything including their very bodies to achieve it. These fanatics have weaponry which the planet has never encountered before, being men, women and little children bomb squads willing to go wherever they are sent to destroy, maim, kill and conquer.Our destiny is not in our own hands. It's in theirs, so long as we stick our proverbial heads into the sand and ignore what they said they would do and what they are doing.Our destiny is also determined by the fact that if we are to resist Islamic world domination we find ourselves at war. We either bow to the Islamic god Allah, become enslaved to the Islamic god Allah's people or we resist with warfare.Our fatefully flawed warfare goes in, conquers and then we foolishly send billions and expend multiple thousands of personel to rebuild Sheiha Islamic theocracy in Iraq compatible to that of Iran sharing our weaponry and expertise for eventual Islamic world conquest. (Shame on the Bush Administration) We look at the Middle East and we see this tiny piece of real estate which is the nation of Israel. This little tiny piece of real estate is where the Biblical prophecies are focused. This little tiny piece of real estate is also where the Islamic nations are focused so far as it being a thorn in their quest for world domination. They all say it must go and they must have it (as prophesied in Biblical scripture). This little piece of real estate is also where the Biblical prophecies have been focused which is to become the capitol of the world for messianic kingdom prophesied for the last days of this Gentile age. This little tiny piece of real estate has become prominent in world news since it's restoration as a nation in 1948 as Biblical prophesies have declared for the latter days.So Grizz, like I said, I'm observing the real world and applying what I observe in the scriptures which coincide with what we see, hear and read in the news media today.Your alternative, as I understand it is pie in the sky and notagona happen. Who is going to change people, as your alternative suggests? People will behave and think as they are taught to behave and think. That is no doable solution to the real live observable ongoing war on terror. Nobody is going to change the minds of the terrorists who are funded by governments and millions of people who back them. The alternative to leave them alone means surrender to them either as slaves or converts.One reason they will first succeed as the Biblical prophecies indicate is that they have succeeded in convincing the West that Islam is a peaceful religion. This lie is purposely propagated so as for Islam and Jihad to infiltrate Western governments and cultures to soften up prior to takeover. It's happening in Europe big time and in the US as well.The US now has at least (I say at least) one PUBLIC school which is Islamic. Link the above and what you read should astound you.......Still waiting for a doable alternative to the war on terror besides the two I've cited. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Rahvin, this is not the dark ages. Things have changed. Try to focus in on a doable alternative in our troubled times to end the war on terror to what I've suggested. I'm convinced there's no other. Prove me wrong. LOL!

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Buzz,I don't know what else to say. What are you suggesting we do? Where are you going with this?

Rahvin writes:

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weakening Islamic extremism in Iraq

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Excuse me, but what on earth does Iraq have to do with "the war on terror" in any way you wish to define it, even in the concept of "Islamic extremism" as it pertains to Islam against the world?The violence in Iraq is a civil war. All the players are Muslim, just differing sects. This is not a battle of Islam against the infidel. This is a civil war for control of a country.Note: This in no way implies Hussein was a good guy or that his regime had no dealings with any terrorist activities of any kind.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

The Middle East is, by a great many methods of measurement, still in the dark ages. There is no "proving" involved in any of this, Buz - it's all bare speculation. I can show that it's stupid to assume that the only way the "War on Terror" will end is via an end times prophesy being fulfilled, because we have had similarly motivated conflicts in the past that were resolved without divine intervention. I cannot "prove" that neither of those prophesies will ever take place, for the same reason you can never "prove" that Ragnarok will never come, or that Santa won't bring me a present this Christmas.You dismissed my points without addressing them, Buz. The Muslim extremists who practice terrorism are stuck in a dark-age mentality backed up with modern weaponry. It has been shown that, in Iraq where the consequences of terrorist tactics are felt by the citizenry, the next generation is turning away from such beliefs. It is perfectly feasible that the "War on Terror" will end on its own, as have other religious conflicts in the past.Instead of "Lol," perhaps you could respond to an actual point.I'll make it easy:Point 1: Those are not the only two supernatural ways for the "War on Terror" to end. Ragnarok could come about, the FSM could devour the world to create it anew next Thursday, or literally any other end times prophesy could come true. You have never shown that the two you mentioned are the only possibilities - you simply stated as much. Prove that the others are not also possibilities, Bux.Point 2: There are perfectly normal ways in which the "War on Terror" could end without the end of the world. There is the promising case of the youth of Iraq turning away from Islam entirely. There is the example of Christianity emerging from a very similar mindset and managing to change from a tyrannical "convert or die, infidel!" religion into a still annoying but less lethal "convert or you'll burn in hell" religion. We already have a very large number of moderate Muslims living right now who have already dismissed the insane radical philosophies of Al Qaeda and their ilk. There is obviously no need for the entire world to end to stop what, in the grand scheme of things, amounts to a very small population of people waging a relatively effective guerrilla war against a force they cannot ever possibly hope to defeat for religious reasons.So Buz, why are your two examples of religious prophesy the only two theological possibilities? Why do you discount all other faiths?How specifically is the current vein of Muslim extremism different in its stated aims and goals than the Christianity of the dark ages, and why can Muslim extremism not die out due to the same reasons Christian extremism mostly died out?Why don't you try to focus on addressing a point rather than dismissing them with "lol."

The reasons the Sunnis and Shia hate each other are different from the reasons AQ hates the US. But fundamentally it's all the same: religious extremism resulting in ethnic and religious cleansing. In a very real way, "Islam vs Infidel" is the same as "My Islam vs. Your Islam."But the point of my statement was that, where the effects of terrorism and religious warfare are felt by the actual citizenry, the youth in Iraq are turning away from extremist Islam. Whether it's a perfect example of the "War on Terror" or not is irrelevant - it is an example of religious extremism driving successive generations away from religious extremism, and that is very relevant to the "War on Terror."After all, AQ's tactics don't work very well in terms of attrition. They need new bodies constantly, and those new bodies must have sufficient religious fervor to commit suicide in the name of their cause (not all are suicide bombers, certainly, but you get my point). As such, AQ must remain a popular movement in order to continue functioning on any real scale. Their own tactics that involve killing innocent Muslims in shopping centers serve to weaken that popularity amongst younger generations.

Rahvin responds to me:

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The reasons the Sunnis and Shia hate each other are different from the reasons AQ hates the US.

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Indeed.But Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq. It never has.

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But the point of my statement was that, where the effects of terrorism and religious warfare are felt by the actual citizenry, the youth in Iraq are turning away from extremist Islam.

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But "extremist Islam" has nothing to do with Iraq any more than "extremist Christianity" has to do with Ireland. Was it "extremist Americanism" that was at the heart of the US Civil War?

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After all, AQ's tactics don't work very well in terms of attrition.

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But Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq. It's a civil war for the control of the country.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Correction: it didn't until there were Americans there to kill. They are there, but a minor presence. The Civil War was not fought between the Presbyterians and the Baptists, Rrhain. The Iraqi civil war is more along those lines. It's not just a war for control of the country, it's a religiously motivated war of ethnic cleansing as well. While AQ is not the major combatant Bush or Faux News or Buz would have us believe, there are parallels that can be drawn between the Sunni/Shia religiously-motivated civil war and teh "War on Terror" as a whole.And besides that, we all know the "War on Terror" is defined as "whoever is shooting at Americans or indiscriminately killing civilians in terror-based attacks or who I just don't like" according to Bush.Which of course leads to the other way the "War on Terror" can end: the US stops it, not by annihilating the enemy, but by no longer acting as a giant recruiting campaign for factions including (but not limited to) AQ who want to kill Americans. We get out of Iraq, and focus on helping the non-Taliban Afghanis actually improve their standard of living, and global terrorism could actually start to decline.

Rahvin responds to me:

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But Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq. It never has.

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Correction: it didn't until there were Americans there to kill. They are there, but a minor presence.

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So minor that they account for less than 2% of the violence that is happening there. To pretend that Al Qaeda has any sort of real influence over the lives of people in Iraq is to ignore reality.

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The Civil War was not fought between the Presbyterians and the Baptists, Rrhain.

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I know. That's my entire point. There were factions in a war. That the conflict in Iraq is between different sects of Islam doesn't make it a religious war in and of itself. It's a civil war. They're fighting for control of the country, not for the complete elimination of the other sect. The civil war in Iraq is about the economics of tribalism, not religion.

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It's not just a war for control of the country, it's a religiously motivated war of ethnic cleansing as well.

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Only in the same sense that the war in Ireland was a "religious motivated war of ethnic cleansing." Are you saying Ireland is/was (depending upon how you measure it) a hotbed of "extremist Christianity"?Yes, religion plays a part in it, but it has more to do with tribalism, economics, and power than it has to do with religion.And if your claim is correct, that the youth of Iraq are eschewing "extremist Islam," why is it that the violence is getting worse? The surge didn't work. What caused the dip in violence was primarily a combination of Al Sadr calling a cease fire and the US bribing the populace to stop attacking us. Now that those are fading, the violence is coming back.

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We get out of Iraq, and focus on helping the non-Taliban Afghanis actually improve their standard of living, and global terrorism could actually start to decline.

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I agree, but the violence in Iraq will not stop just because we leave. It's just that they won't be shooting at us because we won't be there with targets on our backs. And if the civil war in Iraq suddenly stops becoming "global terrorism" simply because we're not there any more, then it isn't "global terrorism" now.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Well, Grizz, all I can tell you is what I do.1. As I see the prophecy of Mohammed that Islam will prevail over all nations by the sword and as I see his prophecy emerging to fulfillment I try to enlighten my fellow countrymen/women to the threat so as to perhaps slow the advance of this threat to our nation, our state, our county or our community. I don't want children in my hometown public funded school to be subjected to Islamic indoctrination as exists in some CA and MN public schools; likely elsewhere as well.2. By understanding this as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy I urge our representives in government to see that we don't allow Israel to fall to the demands of her enemies. It is partly because of the US that Israel has not fallen yet. God has raised up the US as a nation for this purpose and as a missionary base for propagating his gospel globally. This is all providential. God uses his people and both totalitarian and free nations to effect his program and to thwart the forces of evil. I work to do my little part in God's kingdom and purpose. This will benefit in eternal reward in the judgement as I understand the scriptures.3. It is reassuring to know that in the end the eternal plan, purpose and kingdom of the Biblical god, Jehovah and his christ/messiah Jesus will prevail. Is this blind faith? No. Why? Because of the evidence we observe that the prophecies are on tract and being fulfilled as we read, hear and see in the media. It's like reading the back of the book and good ultimately prevails!

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Rrhain, your false implication here is that the war in Iraq is what comprises "global terrorism." Do you really believe that to be the case??? What about Israel and the stated Jihadist agenda as supported and advocated by heads of state and Islamic clerics worldwide? What about the Jihadist agenda/ambitions for Europe, Great Britain, and the Americas as they work to infiltrate our governments to subvert, intimidate via violence and conquer?

Rahvin, think about your phrase backed up with modern weaponry. This factor alone is very significant. Us older folks remember the Kamikazes of WWII who believed in emperor worship, believing eternal rewards were to be gained by suicidal sacrifice. Imo had we not dropped the Atom bombs, these Kamikazes had the potential of turning the ending of this war the other way around.But now we have a far greater host of multiple thousands who have been indoctrinated since children, believing there will be significant reward for suicidal sacrifice for their Muslim god, Allah. Compared to the Kamikazes, the threat here is far greater and certainly no comparison whatsoever to the swords of the dark ages. They don't need an airplane and their target is anywhere any place on the globe where they are sent for their mission. They are willing to kill both rival Islamic factions as well as the despised Jew and infidel.How can you compare this to the events of the Dark Ages? You can't. There's no way these fanatics can be stopped so long as the governments of their nations and their national educational institutions program this mentality into their minds. THESE NATINONS ARE DETERMINED TO TAKE THIS ALL THE WAY TO HAR-MEGEDDON which, according to the prophet Zechariah will occur at the Valley of Jehosaphat/River Kedron between the Mount of Olives and the Temple Mount at Jerusalem, Jerusalem being the center of contention in this war on terror! For them it a fight to the death and there's no way for sophisticated aircraft or other weaponry to stop them! BTW, please provide some evidence for your claims that there is a significant global youth movement among Islamic youth willing to die as heretics (zindigs) who depart from Islam. OTO the following paragraph is a sampling of the evidence in this site alone showing how Hamas youth as well as all of the citizenry are kept in the fold in Islamic theocratic regimes.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

And you of course would be wrong Sure you can, these are people blinded by religon and willing to kill to spread it, like christians in the dark ages. Reading comprehension Buz. Rahvin isn't saying that youth are turning away from Islam all over the world, just in Iraq. He is saying that it is logical to think that this trend will spread globally.

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Doc, as is often the case with you, you contribute nothing significant to the debate. You ignore my points, including why the present threat is not comparable to the Dark Ages etc.It would be appreciated if you would contribute something of significance to the thread and refrain from clutering it with non sequitur red herrings.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.