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Author Topic:   Hypocrisy Among American Fundamentalists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 122 (777630)
02-04-2016 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
02-04-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Percy writes:
There is not just one meaning of gospel, and someone can choose whichever one they like, hopefully making the one they intended clear from context.
So it means "good news". I have been taught that the words are alive. If anyone of you were speaking a life or death message of common significance, and if you were certain that what you heard came directly or indirectly from God, aside from critically examining your "certainty" wouldnt you be sure and articulate whatever you told others with the importance of the source and content of such a message?
Edited by Phat, : ? added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 02-04-2016 7:23 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 7:45 PM Phat has replied
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 02-04-2016 8:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 122 (777632)
02-04-2016 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-04-2016 6:30 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Phat writes:
So it means "good news". I have been taught that the words are alive.
What does that even mean? How are words alive? Do they eat or drink or have to take a crap? Do they pay taxes, wear clothes, weigh much?
Phat writes:
If anyone of you were speaking a life or death message of common significance, and if you were certain that what you heard came directly or indirectly from God, aside from critically examining your "certainty" wouldnt you be sure and articulate whatever you told others with the importance of the source and content of such a message?
Unless you test the message against reality how can you tell if it has any value, importance, significance or is from any particular source?
Edited by jar, : fix quote box.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 6:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 8:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 8:20 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 122 (777633)
02-04-2016 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-04-2016 7:45 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
How are words alive?
They have been initially formed in the mind of a living being, arranged in the manner that the being wishes to communicate. Filtered through translators diminishes the impact only if the message has changed.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 7:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 9:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 122 (777635)
02-04-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-04-2016 7:45 PM


Testing Against Reality
Unless you test the message against reality how can you tell if it has any value, importance, significance or is from any particular source?
True. And the God in whom I believe equates to reality,as far as I can tell so far.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 7:45 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 02-04-2016 10:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 95 of 122 (777636)
02-04-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-04-2016 6:30 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
I think you might be addressing some other point than the one I was making. Sure, one of the meanings of gospel is "good news," specifically the good news that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected, but there are other meanings, and Hyroglyphx was using one of those.
--Percy

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 96 of 122 (777637)
02-04-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Hyroglyphx
02-04-2016 1:38 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Can you expound?
Religious broadcasters often offer a book for a donation (and often that's a donation of a specific amount). They are clearly hinting that you can deduct what you pay for the book as a charitable donation.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-04-2016 1:38 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by kbertsche, posted 02-04-2016 10:39 PM nwr has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 122 (777639)
02-04-2016 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
02-04-2016 8:02 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Phat writes:
jar writes:
How are words alive?
They have been initially formed in the mind of a living being, arranged in the manner that the being wishes to communicate. Filtered through translators diminishes the impact only if the message has changed.
Sorry but that is just more word salad nonsense. If I form a jug is the jug alive? If someone translates the jug does it have any meaning?
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Unless you test the message against reality how can you tell if it has any value, importance, significance or is from any particular source?
True. And the God in whom I believe equates to reality,as far as I can tell so far.
More word salad nonsense. Just how do you determine "the God in whom I believe equates to reality"? What tests told you that? What does that even mean?
Phat there is a pattern here that is important within the context of this thread. I'm not sure hypocrisy is the correct diagnosis, rather it seems a willful decision by American fundamentalists and "Bible Christians" to accept that words can mean whatever you want them to mean, that the words do not mean what they actually say and that those words you like should not be critically examined to see if they make any sense; that the source of the words are more important than the actual content. That the analysis of the words can change the meaning of what was actually said or written.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 8:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 11:26 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 98 of 122 (777641)
02-04-2016 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
02-04-2016 8:20 PM


Re: Testing Against Reality
Phat, what you are saying about God's words being alive is said in the Bible here:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
One commentary I read pointed out the common experience of believers of the Bible's speaking directly to us about our own circumstances when we read it or hear it preached.

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 99 of 122 (777642)
02-04-2016 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hyroglyphx
02-04-2016 2:19 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Hi Hyro,
Hyro writes:
The gospels are about a chronicling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, to include his teachings and the revelations about his mission
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are called the four gospels as they were so named by the Church Fathers a very long time ago.
They are so called because they all include the gospel of Christ. They tell of his death burial and resurrection to redeem mankind from his lost estate.
You asked how this pertained to the discussion.
The word fundamental or fundamentalists makes the definitions of terms used important to any discussion.
fundamental
/ˌfəndəˈmen(t)əl/
adjective
adjective: fundamental
1. forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.
A fundamental Christian does not get to form his/her own base or core of central importance.
All Christian beliefs are based upon the Word of God which we find in the Bible.
Churches or groups who make up their own core of central importance is not a Christian Church.
A Christian is someone who is living a life like Christ did.
A Christian Church is one that is practicing what Jesus preached the way He said to live our lives. Not to live their lives the way they choose, and accepting the parts Jesus taught that agrees with their worldview.
Now as to the discussion at hand.
Fundamentalist are humans and can make as big of mistakes as anyone else.
But when it comes to electing officials to lead our government I would rather have a born again fundamental Christian leading our country. The problem with that is that most of those folks are too busy to run for political office and really have a higher calling. Which is to share the gospel with the lost and dying world.
So I look at what a man says and what he has done and try to decide if that person is the best for the country, state, or county. In other words who will represent me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-04-2016 2:19 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-05-2016 2:43 AM ICANT has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 100 of 122 (777643)
02-04-2016 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by nwr
02-04-2016 8:39 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
nwr writes:
Religious broadcasters often offer a book for a donation (and often that's a donation of a specific amount). They are clearly hinting that you can deduct what you pay for the book as a charitable donation.
But before deducting on your taxes, you must subtract the fair market value of the book. The US tax code is pretty clear; you can only deduct contributions in excess of the fair market value of the goods that you received. The larger Christian ministries (and any to which you donate more than $250, I believe) make this easy to do by sending you a year-end statement.
I often listen to a specific radio ministry which offers a free CD, DVD, or book for a donation in any amount. At the end of the year they send me a statement which totals my contributions and also the fair market value of what I have received, and reports the difference to me as the amount I may deduct from my taxes.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 02-04-2016 8:39 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 101 of 122 (777644)
02-04-2016 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by kbertsche
02-04-2016 10:39 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
I often listen to a specific radio ministry which offers a free CD, DVD, or book for a donation in any amount. At the end of the year they send me a statement which totals my contributions and also the fair market value of what I have received, and reports the difference to me as the amount I may deduct from my taxes.
If they actually do that, then I see that as okay.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by kbertsche, posted 02-04-2016 10:39 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 122 (777646)
02-04-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
02-04-2016 9:40 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
If I form a jug is the jug alive?
Is this your best attempt at communication? With a jug?
If someone translates the jug does it have any meaning?
How does one translate a jug?
More so, a Creator by definition does more than sit on a potters wheel forming jugs.
The entire point of the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us was and iscommunication.
Lets take a recent Bible Study i had-how to differentiate the will of God from the plan of God. Of course, you will likely ask me all sorts of non-believing questions like "how do I know god is alive? or How do I know God is real...etc etc.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 9:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 02-05-2016 8:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 122 (777649)
02-05-2016 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
02-04-2016 4:36 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
You and ICANT state that my definition of the gospel is not accurate. Really?
quote:
1.the teaching or revelation of Christ:
"it is the Church's mission to preach the gospel"
synonyms: Christian teaching Christian doctrine Christ's teaching
[more]
2.the record of Jesus' life and teaching in the first four books of the New Testament.
3.a fervent style of black American evangelical religious singing, developed from spirituals sung in Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches:
"gospel singers"
It is that view of the gospel that makes it certain you never were a Christian. It has nothing to do with your sincerity as you kept saying, it's about what you believe and you didn't believe the true gospel. I don't say this to be insulting, just to make it clear how I know.
Haha, thanks for getting so personal!
You gave up on your belief so easily as it was, that's another pretty good reason to suppose you never did really believe, because true gospel belief is a supernatural thing, an actual spiritual rebirth.
Well, there's two ways of looking at it. Either I "gave up so easily" or my own knowledge of the bible led me to see the errors it contains and that I deduced that it wasn't what it claimed to be.
I don't know if one could ever walk away from that level of commitment
And that mentality may very well blind you from some uncomfortable truths.
But the gospels are not THE Gospel, which is what ICANT said, Jesus' dying to pay for our sins so that we are spared their consequences. That's what salvation is.
I gave a very brief, definitional synopsis of what the gospel is. Of course it is about the salvation of Christ which, by the way, are some of the teachings and revelations that came through from Jesus.
ICANT was responding to your statement in Message 57 that you think a preacher should only present "the gospel" and not argue politics. I responded as if you had said "the Bible" or the New Testament, though I should have asked as ICANT did what you mean by the gospel
People use the phrase "gospel" colloquially to mean "the bible," which is what I said. You're really splitting hairs here.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 02-04-2016 4:36 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 122 (777650)
02-05-2016 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
02-04-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
That's getting a bit personal, don't you think?
Seriously!
Gospel has more than one definition, and Hyroglyphx gave the definition of gospel he had in mind in his passage that ICANT inquired about. Here are the definitions from Dictionary.com
Precisely. As if no one at EvC knows what the gospel is. Really, the question was loaded since brief summaries will invariably miss some of the relevant content.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 122 (777651)
02-05-2016 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nwr
02-04-2016 8:39 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Religious broadcasters often offer a book for a donation (and often that's a donation of a specific amount). They are clearly hinting that you can deduct what you pay for the book as a charitable donation.
Oh, I understand now. Yeah, that's clearly a tax dodge and something that should be explicitly forbidden.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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