Probability of the existence of God

Let us say you have a two sided coin. You are trying to calculate the probability that the coin will land on either one side or the other. For discussion purposes let us imagine that both sides are the same, heads. Are you saying that you must consider the possibility that you are delusional and you or the coin do not exist? I must have been asleep that day in statistics class!Of course not! The probability, if the coin lands on one side or the other, that it will come up heads is 100%. How do you suppose that natural selection can be responsible for the design that we see in living things? Can natural selection design a reproductive system? When would this design occur? If the original living organism, or any subsequent species, did not have a fully functional reproductive system then we would not be having this converstation. There would be no continuation of life for us to talk about. That requires a designer.Thanks for your input.

Actually, God did exactly that. He took on the form of a man, claimed to be equal with God, was crucified, buried, and resurrected from the dead. After this, there was over 500 witnesses who saw Him, and then He ascended into heaven. Jesus Christ, the Son of God.That is evidence! I believe Him! Generally in calculation of probabilities, we do not set aside some percent for the possibility that we are delusional. See my previous post. We often calculate probabilities that add up to 100%. For example in election polls, we do not hear that 99% of the people are voting for this or that candidate, and then hear that there is a 1% probability that we are all delusional and an election is not even taking place.Thanks

PaulK O.K. Your point is that matter is matter, fine I will not disagree with that. The body of a living person is like that of a dead person, both are physical objects with an atomic structure. So what is your point? We all can see that matter is mater. Are you going to say that life, that thing that makes the difference between a piece of matter that has no life and a life form (matter animated by life)is also made of atoms? Do you think that life is just an arrangement of atoms?

Dr Adequate, let me ask you, do you think that life (that thing which animates matter) is also composed of atoms? Do you think that all living things are 100% matter?

It seems that you have agreed with my point - that there is no inherent difference between living matter and dead matter. Nobody has found anything special about living matter. Its properties are explained by the same physics and chemistry as unliving matter.The difference between living and unliving matter is that living matter is participating in the processes that we call life. And that is really all that there is to it.

I bet they did not consider the possibility of the coin landing on it's edge either? Extremely unlikely but statistically possible. Sometimes the probabilities of some things are so small they are effectively irrelevent to all practical intents and purposes. However they do mean that 100% certainty in anything is impossible if based on evidence?We can never kow we have all the evidence. We can never have 100% certainty based on possibly incomplete evidence.So in a coin tossing situation there are two 'realistic' possibilities and we can work out the probability accordingly. Yes?You cannot determine the probability of something unless you know the number of the possible outcomes.In the case of God's existence what are the possibilities?There could be one god. There could be two gods. Three gods. Four, five.....etc. there could be an infinite amount of gods. Or there could be none. Or any number in between.On what evidence exactly do you conclude one particular god with 100% certainty?
How do you know you have all of the evidence?No evidence based conclusion can have 100% certainty without omniscience (in which case we would not need evidence anyway)PS - If you really want to know how the reproductive system evolved I suggest that you look it up. A simple google search should suffice.

Wumpini writes: Which God are you talking about, there are so many? What evidence do you have of the existance of this God? In what way do you think this God exists?

Paulk wrote: There is no difference in the physical matter that is around us. What makes some matter possess life? What is the difference between living matter and dead matter? You cannot say that all matter is alive or all matter is dead, there is a distinction between living matter and dead matter. What makes that difference?

Paulk wrote: Sorry, I got ahead of myself in responding to your post. I see that you already answered what you the difference is between living and non living matter. So lets contiue from there.You say that living matter is PARTICIPATING in the process of life. What gives this matter the ability to PARTICIPATE? Not all matter is participating in life, so there is something that living matter has that non living matter is missing. What is this missing thing?

I already gave you the answer: Did you not see it ? In Message 50 ?I see that you didn't. To answer your new question: physics and chemistry. As I said in Message 50 living matter has no special properties.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Straggler writes: I tried what you have suggested and the google search (evolution reproductive system) came up with 1,920,000 hits. Since this entire field of study seems to have been invented after I went to school, I really did not know where to start. So I began reading some of these articles. I truly believe it takes more faith to believe in abiogenesis, and the evolution of the reproductive system than it does to believe in creation. For example, one research paper that I have reviewed, since it seemed to be related to the topic, was found at the following link:http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0701/0701023.pdfIt is titled:"The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of life: The possibility of chance emergence of the replication and translation systems, and the protein superfolds"by Eugene V. KooninIt appears from this paper that work on the subject in question has not yet shown how RNA could produce a reproduction system which is faithful enough to generate the complexity that the natural selection process requires. He resorts to a multiple universe theory which seems to promote that in an infinite number of universes anything is possible. (I would assume that means anything except God). His paper mentions that somewhere in the universe Elvis is alive, and Al Gore is president. It seems that it would be possible in some universe that molecules could by chance form human beings, and they would just pop into existence fully formed.Now I don't want to appear skeptical, but how do these theories take any less faith than mine. I actually believe there is more evidence for my theory that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and that God created man fully formed." It is my opinion that Elvis is not alive anywhere in the universe.Maybe I wandered into the wrong theory. Although Koonin seems to be a respected member of the scientific community. He has a lot of letters after his name, and is the Senior Investigator, National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health.Here is a link that gives more information about him:Eugene Koonin - WikipediaDo you have a better theory than this one? If you supply a link, I will be happy to read up on the subject.

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"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce

I am not a scientist, so the scientific minds can correct me if I am wrong (I am sure they will.) I believe that the answer which dictates what is living matter would be the genetic code. Living matter contains genetic instructions which tells it what it is, and how to replicate or reproduce. Without this code, it is nothing but matter.Here is a link that gives a layman's description of DNA:DNA - Wikipedia

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"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce

You are obviously not a scientist. No reasonable definition of "life" contains a reference to DNA. DNA is nothing more than a molecule - there is nothing inherently different about the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and other elements that make up DNA from those same elements in non-living material.As a matter of fact, there are many life forms, including plants, which take abiotic organic compounds (that means non-living carbon-based material) and metabolize them into their own bodies - it's how they grow and reproduce. Quite literally, non-living matter becomes "living."Also, not all forms of life have DNA - viruses are commonly referred to as living things (though the line blurs as they require a host cell to reproduce, but that's another subject) and they utilize RNA.When it comes down to it, Wumpini, life is nothing more than a series of chemical reactions that results in reproduction, metabolization, and responses to the environment. You and I are nothing more than an extremely complex series of chemical reactions with delusions of grandeur.To further follow your ignorance, DNA doesn't "tell" an organism how to do anything. DNA is a molecule which codes for various proteins in sequence. It's not like a blueprint, despite the analogies you've seen on TV. The structure of the DNA molecule directly causes the proteins in the organism, once again due to the simple laws of chemistry - it is inevitable and it does not require any "reading" or intelligent factor on behalf of the organism.Not to mention we can manufacture DNA in the lab, and you wouldn't call it "alive" - it doesn't metabolize, it doesn't reproduce, it doesn't respond to its environment (those three being the common definition of "life").DNA has nothing to do with what denotes a living thing.

Yeah, I believe in Jesus too. I just have the intellectual honesty to say that I cannot KNOW that he is god. That's why god has this stuff called faith. If you really KNEW, then you would have no faith.I don't having faith that I'm typing at my computer right now, I know that I am. Of course, this is not 100% knowledge, maybe I'm dreaming or actually in The Matrix The point is that I can admit those possibilities when it comes to knowing if I'm actually sitting at my computer but you are unable to admit them when saying that you know god exists. Why is that? What are you afraid of? Admit it! Well I'd say the probability that we are all delusional is a lot less than one percent. So far less that it is negligible. But it is still there. Because its negligible, we don't have to include it in the results.As far as you being correct about god versus being delusional... I would say that the possibility of you being deluded is not negligible.We don't even know if a god is possible, or which god is the right god. I'm pretty confident that I'm at my computer. But as far as gods go, with all the disagreement and variety, the chances of you being deluded about god are a lot higher than me being deluded about being here at my computer.Like I said, you can't know, 100%, that god really exists.

I have the intellectual honesty to not attempt to ride the fence. Jesus is either God or He is not God.In John 8:24, He said, "Except you believe that I am He you will die in your sins." That means that there is no room for doubt.Paul tells us in the book of Romans, that we are without excuse if we deny the existence of God:Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.With faith, there is no room for doubt.Whether my faith is based upon objective or subjective evidence is irrelevant. Whether I am delusional is irrelevant. Whether everyone in the world disagrees with me is irrelevant. Based upon the evidence, I have complete assurance that the God of Abraham exists. I have complete assurance that there is a spiritual realm that exists in the world today that cannot be seen or understood by those who think only in physical terms.Complete assurance means 100%.Probability that God exists based upon my faith: 100%Because of this faith, all of the decisions that I make in my life will be in accordance with the will of this deity that I believe to exist. And God does not allow those who truly believe in Him, to doubt His existence. Even if that doubt is only 1% or less.

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"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce