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Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Bipedalism in apes: a plesiomorphic trait? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Doddy Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
I recently came across a creationist espousing a book titled The Upright Ape.
I haven't actually read it, but the author, a spinal neurosurgeon, is suggesting that humans evolved from a bipedal ape. That is, quadrapedalism is apomorphic for modern apes like chimps and gorillas. I was able to get two quotes from the book. One from the preface:
quote: And one from the conclusion:
quote: What do you think? Sound plausible in the least? Honestly, I think it violates everything I know about 'maximum liklihood' cladistics (i.e. not much). How could all apes bar one end up with the hunched over character....how could our spine be so screwy if it had evolved for that long...how could the other fossils be interpreted so wrongly? Is the author a quack? Human origins, please. What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The first upright ape was also human. In the millions of years that followed, new species branched off and abandoned their upright posture to descend to what we now call "ape." Nonsense. The first upright ape, according to this find was Morotopithecus and its close cousins had the potential ability of bipedal locomotion. It is possible that the other great apes had an ancestor that was able to walk upright. I have no reason to suspect that this fact, should it be true, means that current Evolutionary Theory as it now stands cannot explain it.
How could all apes bar one end up with the hunched over character That question can be asked without this being an issue, we are uniquely bipedal -why? The question is why did evolution modify this trait in us so that we are bipedal specialists (Morotopithecus would probably have not been exclusively bipedal from what I have read), when it modified all the other surviving lineages to have less bipedalism?
how could our spine be so screwy if it had evolved for that long Our spines of course, have been evolving for much longer. However, there is the possibility that our lineage flirted with both bipedalism and quadrapedalim for some time before evolving into the specialists we are. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I don't know whether it is relevant to the OP exactly, but this past summer I linked to a BBC article about a proposal that bipedalism evolved among our arboreal ancestors to aid in walking along thin branches, and that it is the obligate bipedalism of the more terrestrial apes that is the derived feature.
In that context it seems plausible. In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Nonsense. The first upright ape, according to this find was Morotopithecus and its close cousins had the potential ability of bipedal locomotion. It is possible that the other great apes had an ancestor that was able to walk upright. I have no reason to suspect that this fact, should it be true, means that current Evolutionary Theory as it now stands cannot explain it. I have felt for some time that the capability for bipedalism would be older than currently theorized, and that the range of bipedalism vs quadrapedalism is more a matter of degree than of kind. Certainly all members of the hominoid superfamily are capable of walking on two legs in varying degree, as are many old world monkeys (the capuchin "organ grinder" monkey for example). I looked up Morotopithecus and found several articles discussing the find, such as:
BU Professor Digs Up Clues To Human Origins quote: Hanging from branches would tend to favor adaptation to a body capable of being verticle from head to toe, and would act to "pre-adapt" apes for occasional bipedalism.
(Morotopithecus would probably have not been exclusively bipedal from what I have read) More like a baboon, a gibbon (without long arms), or an orangutan it seems to me. Capable of bipedalism but not attached to it.
That question can be asked without this being an issue, we are uniquely bipedal -why? The question is why did evolution modify this trait in us so that we are bipedal specialists Because there was an opportunity for a bipedal ape and our bipedal capable ancestors were able to take advantage of it. Once taken there was not much opportunity for turning back.
Our spines of course, have been evolving for much longer. However, there is the possibility that our lineage flirted with both bipedalism and quadrapedalim for some time before evolving into the specialists we are. Suspensory behavior would also adapt our spines (and hips and knees) for a vertical orientation without requiring much bipedal activity. And our necks and skulls, etc. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Because there was an opportunity for a bipedal ape and our bipedal capable ancestors were able to take advantage of it. Once taken there was not much opportunity for turning back. Well yes, but the question remains: what was that opportunity that was not presented to our uncles?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
what was that opportunity that was not presented to our uncles? The opportunity was there, but there were other opportunities as well, and "our uncles" took one of those other opportunities. Not everyone becomes a banker to become a millionaire. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i'll look it over, but i see one startling flaw:
chimpanzees are capable of walking upright. that's oliver the chimp, who had such a tendency to do so that people called him a "humanzee." (genetic tests confirmed that he was entirely chimp, btw). what's even more truly bizarre is that i'm pretty sure that chimps are better at bipedal locomotion that we are. after all, they don't have pass giant-headed freak babies through their hips. we do.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
arachnophilia writes: what's even more truly bizarre is that i'm pretty sure that chimps are better at bipedal locomotion that we are. after all, they don't have pass giant-headed freak babies through their hips. we do. Depends how you define 'better'. If you do mean being able to do it and still have little complications, then yes they are better. If you mean being able to do it efficiently and quickly (i.e. run), then we certainly outdo the chimps, even the thinner hips (but bigger heads) do cause some problems. What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!
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Jon Inactive Member |
what's even more truly bizarre is that i'm pretty sure that chimps are better at bipedal locomotion that we are. after all, they don't have pass giant-headed freak babies through their hips. we do. Unfortunately, though, chimps are not bipedal, and they are actually worse at it than we are.
quote: Human/Ape:
There is a slew of other characteristics that make chimpanzees unsuited to habitual bipedalism, from skull structure to pelvic shape; and save for those strange little primates like Oliver, bipedalism's never been the preferred way to go. Jon__________ Robert H. Lavenda & Emily A. Schultz, Anthropology: What does it mean to be human? 117 amonline.net.au In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
chimpanzees are capable of walking upright. that's oliver the chimp, who had such a tendency to do so that people called him a "humanzee." There is also the case of the black macaque: MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
quote: This really shows how unremarkable the human ability to walk upright really is - when looked at in comparison to other primates it is really a difference of degree. The only real difference that I can see is that since adapting an upright posture, subsequent human evolution has made it awkward and counter-productive to use a quadrupedal lifestyle (the turkish "hand walkers" notwithstanding). The difference is more that we are no longer able to not use bipedal locomotion. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Unfortunately, though, chimps are not bipedal, and they are actually worse at it than we are. i had heard they expend less energy walking fully erect than we do, not having to swing wide hips back and forth. maybe i've got that backwards, though. the point about the toe does make sense, too.
There is a slew of other characteristics that make chimpanzees unsuited to habitual bipedalism, from skull structure to pelvic shape; and save for those strange little primates like Oliver, bipedalism's never been the preferred way to go. as an interesting aside, oliver is no longer bipedal in his old age.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
This really shows how unremarkable the human ability to walk upright really is - when looked at in comparison to other primates it is really a difference of degree. well, yes. we're more evolved with bipedalism in mind, whereas they are not. it's actually somewhat easy to see the process by which greater adaptations for erect bipedalism would evolve for states very similar to modern apes.
The only real difference that I can see is that since adapting an upright posture, subsequent human evolution has made it awkward and counter-productive to use a quadrupedal lifestyle (the turkish "hand walkers" notwithstanding). The difference is more that we are no longer able to not use bipedal locomotion. i was thinking of bringing them up. iirc, they are actually slightly anatomically different in terms of ligaments and joints -- but mostly as a result (not the cause) of their quadrapedalism. it's sort of odd to think of bipedalism as at least partly developmental.
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MauriceAWilliams Junior Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 3 From: Cleveland, OH Joined: |
Doddy brought up the subject of “The Upright Ape.” She posted a few quotes from the book and asked if anyone had read it. I have just finished reading it, and I posted a review of it on Revish.com.
The author has impressive credentials, both as an anthropologist and as a MD specializing in spinal surgery. His book is about a twenty-two-million-year-old fossil of several lumbar vertebrae from a hominoid primate. His skill as a spinal surgeon helped him recognize that this fossil is from an animal that stood erect and probably could not get about in a crouched position as modern-day apes do. He claims that twenty-two million years is seventeen million years too early for an upright ancestor for humans according to the present understanding of evolution. Therefore, the author felt some reappraisal of Darwinian Theory is justified to explain this fossil and also the very large number of new fossils and discoveries of the past twenty-five years. That reappraisal is what his book is all about. I think his book is very well organized and contains much valuable information on what is happening in anthropology right now. I disagree with the author’s main conclusion because it does not fit with my Christian faith. I believe humans have spiritual souls; animals do not. I have no problem accepting that humans probably descended from apes. I do have a problem accepting what Doddy quoted from the book: quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The first upright ape was also the first human. In the millions of years that followed, new species branched off and abandoned their upright posture to descend to what we now call "ape." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by MauriceAWilliams, : I left out a few words
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