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Author Topic:   Evolution needs faith ?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 16 of 19 (395875)
04-18-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
04-17-2007 9:28 AM


Evolution needs understanding
This arguement is around in the forums here, but I'm also not sure how to search for it. It's generally presented and then left dangling because, well, there's really no where for it to go.
Anyway, it seems to me that it generally comes down to what NosyNed was saying:
NosyNed writes:
The word has a number of different connotations ranging from 'trust' to religious faith.
The Theory of Evolution takes a look at all the evidence we have, and proposes an explanation of that evidence. When new evidence is acquired that somehow contradicts the current Theory of Evolution, the Theory is altered to explain all the old evidence, plus this new evidence.
I don't think the main Theory of Evolution has been altered because of new evidence in many years now, though. Perhaps over 50 even?
Regardless, what we have is a proposed explanation for all the abundant objective evidence we have. Now, are we sure evolution is 100% correct? No. Because there may be something we discover that contradicts the current Theory, and we may need to alter it in order to explain this new evidence. This is generally what some people call the "faith" of evolution.
With God, we don't have any objective evidence of existance, let alone current abilities. Yet many people have "faith" that God exists, and even sometimes about his abilities. This faith tends to be one that's believed to be 100% correct, without error, and without need for any change, ever.
The main difference between these two faiths:
General Evolution "faith": We will alter our explanation of what happens as new objective evidence is acquired because we do not think that our explanation is 100% correct.
General God "faith": We will never alter our belief in God, regardless of any evidence, because it is already 100% correct.
Now, your friend can certainly call them both faith. And, by dictionary definitions they both do fall under certain qualities of faith. However, if he wants to say they are equal, he must accept that his "faith" in God is not 100% correct, and he's willing to alter it as new evidence is acquired. Of course, this "faith" (being equal with Evolution "faith") requires some sort of objective evidence to have an explanation in the first place, so therefore Evolutionary God "faith" would be that God doesn't exist until we discover some objective evidence that he's actually there.
The point is, the standards and method of science is set for evolution and the Theory of Evolution. The standards and method of believing in God is not set (there are however many thousands of different Christian sects...) Calling them the same thing is only confusing. Yet if he insists on it, just remind him of how it lowers his "faith" in God to have to rely on objective evidence. Which then results in a current explanation that God does not exist. Then I think he would like to call them different things. Because, well, they are.
Edited by Stile, : I can't grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 04-17-2007 9:28 AM Kader has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 17 of 19 (395881)
04-18-2007 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
04-17-2007 12:21 PM


Re: Definitions
He seems to imply the that "faith" of evolutionists is the same as his "faith" in God.
Whenever a fundie thinks that an opinion is stupid, wrong, laugable, or downright evil, his first response is to compare it to Christianity.
Go figure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 04-17-2007 12:21 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 12:13 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 19 (395902)
04-18-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Kader
04-17-2007 11:21 AM


Brooklyn Bridge (good faith for bad reasons can get you conned)
Faith is fine. In the financial industry, we operate on good faith all the time. And in science we have faith. The first article of faith is the natural world can be explained in natural terms. Actually the first article of faith is that there is a natural world.
The question is, why do we have faith? Sometimes our reason is a good one, sometimes it is not. To know when a reason is good or not, I turn to the Brooklyn Bridge test. If a man walked up to you and offered to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, you'd have to have faith that you would become the owner of that Bridge for the price offered.
Whether or not you are a fool depends on why you have that faith.
So let's look at the reasons religious people give for having faith, then apply them.
1. It feels good/right to believe in God.
Apply it to the Brooklyn Bridge salesman. I have faith that this sale will happen as described because it feels good or right to believe this.
Sends off the FOOL alarm.
2. My family/friends/pastor believe in God.
If my family were convinced that this guy was going to go through with the sale and you'd be the proud owner of big bridge, that still makes me a fool for having faith in him. It just means my family are fools too.
3. I would be immoral if I did not believe in God.
If I thought it was immoral not to buy bridges off of salesman- I'd be a fool.
And so on. Now look at the why we might have faith in science, and by extension that the evidence that exists points to a change in species over long periods of time.
->Science has been shown to have utility.
If buying bridges from men had generally had some desireable function - you would not be a fool for buying this bridge...even if conmen existed, as long as the good outweighed the bad this would be a good reason for having faith in something.
There is no good reason for having faith in religion. Faith is arbitrarily assigned to certain matters via tradition or pure reasoning. Sometimes this kind of faith is harmless - if you simply have faith that there is something spooky going on in the universe, a creator spirit of some kind exists. That doesn't necessarily have bad implications. It would be like thinking that you have just won $1,000,000 when a letter comes through the post with colourful writing on to that effect. That doesn't necessarily have bad implications, but you could end up getting conned if you followed through with some of the possible implications of that faith (ring a premium rate number for example).
Faith in religious issues is only really railed against by atheists when it is a faith based belief about the natural world. That we have souls so we can't abort zygotes. That morals are god given and anyone who follows different morals is evil and its ok to treat them like shit. The problem is that faith in souls doesn't look like a terrible thing to believe - a harmless piece of faith...but that same piece of faith plus a little bit of reasoning can lead you to some very foolish and possibly dangerous conclusions
When your faith leads you to making decisions that negatively effect other people, and the reason you have for that faith is based on a foolish reason ('it makes me feel good that we have souls and that souls are precious and that aborting zygotes is evil') - that is when faith is bad.
If you have faith in something for bad reasons, you can end up doing or thinking foolish things. Having faith that there is more to reality than 'I think therefore I am', is not having faith for bad reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Kader, posted 04-17-2007 11:21 AM Kader has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 19 (395916)
04-18-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2007 9:37 AM


Re: Definitions
Whenever a fundie thinks that an opinion is stupid, wrong, laugable, or downright evil, his first response is to compare it to Christianity.
Yeah... you know, now that you've mentioned it, it's a lot like how whenever conservatives go see a movie and there's an evil, insane leader with a lust for power that leads to war, they think it's a Hollywood "plot" to make them think of George Bush. It's weird.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2007 9:37 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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