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Author Topic:   Why do right?
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 16 of 168 (379801)
01-25-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
01-25-2007 2:01 PM


Re: Right and wrong
my point is not that they do it for spiritual reasons. they do it because they are afraid of god(s) or because the god(s) tell them too.
the phrase "just because" is a truncated version of "because it is the right thing to do". It states A = A. A causes A.
ABE: can't read. you said reprisal. thought you said reasons. ignore the top comment. when I get out of elementary school, I'll be coming back. ABE2: can't spell either. though is thought.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 168 (379804)
01-25-2007 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by kuresu
01-25-2007 1:48 PM


Re: Right and wrong
[qs]First things first. I'm an atheist. Since I don't believe in
this question doesn't really havea bearing on the topic. It doesn't matter what right and wrong are.
Then it doesn't matter what the spiritual condition is either by the same premise.
I don't need a reason to do the "right" thing.
There is always a reason Kuresu. Always. The number reasons for us not to do wrong deals with punitive and empathic measures. That is the motivator as we assess each instance accordingly.
With punitive measures, fear really is a great motivator. "If I do this, I can go to prison. Since I don't want to go to prison, I will choose to do the right thing."
With empathic responses, our internal understanding of the Golden Rule is with us. "I would feel remorse if I were that person because I am able to empathize with them had it happened to me."
I think when God seems to factor in is not with the no-brainers, but the difficult questions. "Lord, I'm confused right now as to which is right and which is wrong. Can you guide me towards your will?"
I don't see why they are doing the "right" thing because someone tells them it is.
Kuresu, your inner circle of society tells you what is expected of you. Why do you feel as though you are some individualistic maverick who forges his own path?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 1:48 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 6:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 168 (379827)
01-25-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
01-25-2007 2:01 PM


Re: Right and wrong
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Either people believe in spiritual reprisal for wrong doing, which is their motive to do good, according to Kuresu-- or-- they do good, "just because."
False dichotomy.
I don't believe for a second in "spiritual reprisal for wrong doing", but I do have specific resons for doing what's "right".
The survival aspect has already been mentioned. Plain old garden-variety empathy is another. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Feel what makes others feel bad and try to avoid actions that cause those feelings. Feel what makes others feel good and seek out actions that cause those feelings.
I don't need no stinkin' "spiritual reprisals" to motivate me.
Edited by Ringo, : Old age. I knew how to spell "dichotomy" yesterday.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-25-2007 2:01 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-25-2007 6:51 PM ringo has replied
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 19 of 168 (379884)
01-25-2007 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Hyroglyphx
01-25-2007 2:15 PM


Re: Right and wrong
are you afraid of the "just because"? or do you not understand it?
Kant came up with this wonderful thing called the categorical imperative. there are two questions asked to determine what is right and why do it. the first question (determining right) is "would the world work if everyone did this?" Hence, suicide is wrong. The second question I've forgotten. The end effect, though, is that people ideally do the right thing just because. Not because of society. Not because of the golden rule. Not because of fear of god. just because.
Then it doesn't matter what the spiritual condition is either by the same premise.
actually, this is the whole point of the thread. Look at the title. It's not "What is Right", but rather, "Why do Right". I know why I do the right thing, I understand it. What I don't understand is why people never move past the fear motivator, often that of God-fear (hell, sin, etc). Especially, why religious types are so focused on this fear. It seems to me that often, the only reason they do the right thing is because of fear of God or because God has determined what is right to do. You know the phrase "only because I fear God I won't . . ."? that's what I'm talking about.
oh, and I am an individualist. I forge, or attempt to forge, my own path. and given that I have to cut my way through the forest because no one has cleared it for me, I don't have much of a choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-25-2007 2:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 168 (379895)
01-25-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
01-25-2007 3:14 PM


Re: Right and wrong
I don't believe for a second in "spiritual reprisal for wrong doing", but I do have specific resons for doing what's "right".
But you do fear reprisal, do you not? I'm speaking about civil law here. There is only two things that really stop people from doing the wrong thing. 1. Is the legal recourse taken against them that will hinder their personal freedoms, i.e. going to prison for a crime, and 2. People do the right thing because they the ability to feel empathy for the person or institution they would be doing the wrong thing against. Nobody does the right thing without some kind of reasoning behind it, just as nobody tries to avoid oncoming traffic, "just because." There is always a reason behind it.
The only time I think somebodies god, or God, comes in to play is when there is a very difficult thing to come to grips over. Meaning, they may not "know" in that instance what is right and what is wrong.
The survival aspect has already been mentioned. Plain old garden-variety empathy is another. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Feel what makes others feel bad and try to avoid actions that cause those feelings. Feel what makes others feel good and seek out actions that cause those feelings.
Right, which is what I said already. So are you arguing with me or agreeing with me? Its so hard to tell with you, you Devil's Advocate, you.
I don't need no stinkin' "spiritual reprisals" to motivate me.
That seems to change often on people's death beds. But whatever.... *shrugs*

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 01-25-2007 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 01-25-2007 7:44 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 168 (379899)
01-25-2007 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Kader
01-25-2007 10:17 AM


quote:
Even my dog knows right from wrong. When I go back home and I don't see him running toward me, that because he couldnt hold it in anymore, and must of pissed somewhere in the house. He comes then slowly towards me with the tail between his legs, he knows he did wrong.
No, not really.
He knows that when there is pee in the house when you come home, you will get angry with him, but he's long ago forgotten that he was the source of the pee.
I remember reading something a few years back about people with a dog who always got into the trash and made a big mess in the kitchen when they weren't there.
They were sure he "felt guilty" because he would hang his head and "look like he's done something wrong" when they came home and he's gotten into the trash.
To demonstrate that the owners were anthropomorphising their dog, a dog behavioral specialist they were working with on this problem stayed with the dog when they went away. The trainer then went into the kitchen with the dog and had the dog watch him as he (the trainer) proceeded to scatter trash from the can all over the kitchen floor.
When the owners came back a while later, the dog acted in exactly the same "guilty" way as he did when he (the dog) dumped the trash.
Dogs are pretty much perfect Buddhists; they live almost entirely in the moment.
Anyway, that's why it is well-known among dog (and other animal) trainers that if you want to reprimand or praise a dog, you have to do it at the very moment the dog is demonstrating the behavior you want to influence.
Even four or five seconds later is far too late.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 168 (379905)
01-25-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by kuresu
01-25-2007 6:23 PM


Re: Right and wrong
are you afraid of the "just because"? or do you not understand it?
I guess I'm not understanding the breadth of "just because." Because in one instance you say that you learned this behavior, and then in the next, you say imply that religious folk are silly because they get everything out of a book. And you seem to have a rather big chip on your shoulder about what people classically, but incorrectly, refer to as being a Freethinker. So which is? Do you derive your sense of morality from others or are you the maverick who does things, just because?
Kant came up with this wonderful thing called the categorical imperative. there are two questions asked to determine what is right and why do it. the first question (determining right) is "would the world work if everyone did this?" Hence, suicide is wrong. The second question I've forgotten. The end effect, though, is that people ideally do the right thing just because. Not because of society. Not because of the golden rule. Not because of fear of god. just because.
I don't see why you limit the options to we either do the right thing because we believe God will punish us or just because. I've given two other options, that in my opinion, speak more loudly than either or those, which is the fear of reprisal for punitive means or empathic responses. That's not to say that I believe that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
quote:
Then it doesn't matter what the spiritual condition is either by the same premise.
actually, this is the whole point of the thread. Look at the title. It's not "What is Right", but rather, "Why do Right". I know why I do the right thing, I understand it. What I don't understand is why people never move past the fear motivator, often that of God-fear (hell, sin, etc).
I don't think too many people have Hell on their mind when thinking whether or not they should steal a pack of gum. I think that you not only mischaracterize most religious folk and their motivation for doing good and avoiding bad, but that you also don't seem to have a firm grasp on what is supposed to happen to you when you do wrong in any given religious context. I mean, I guess we'd have to break it down religion by religion and then tackle it.
Especially, why religious types are so focused on this fear. It seems to me that often, the only reason they do the right thing is because of fear of God or because God has determined what is right to do. You know the phrase "only because I fear God I won't . . ."? that's what I'm talking about.
I've never done that. I have, on some occasions, done the right thing ONLY because I believe God wants me to do it and that I believe He always has my best interests in mind. But I don't believe for a second that God will strike me down in an immediate act of retribution every time I sin. If that were the case, I'd be dead long ago.
oh, and I am an individualist.
I know you are.
I forge, or attempt to forge, my own path.
I know you do.
and given that I have to cut my way through the forest because no one has cleared it for me
We all try to clear a path through the creeks, crags, and snares of life. But I would be obtuse to pridefully think that all of my capacities were borne of only my own resolve.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 168 (379909)
01-25-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
01-25-2007 7:02 PM


New topic on the cognitive level of animals?
No, not really.
He knows that when there is pee in the house when you come home, you will get angry with him, but he's long ago forgotten that he was the source of the pee.
I remember reading something a few years back about people with a dog who always got into the trash and made a big mess in the kitchen when they weren't there.
They were sure he "felt guilty" because he would hang his head and "look like he's done something wrong" when they came home and he's gotten into the trash.
To demonstrate that the owners were anthropomorphising their dog, a dog behavioral specialist they were working with on this problem stayed with the dog when they went away. The trainer then went into the kitchen with the dog and had the dog watch him as he (the trainer) proceeded to scatter trash from the can all over the kitchen floor.
When the owners came back a while later, the dog acted in exactly the same "guilty" way as he did when he (the dog) dumped the trash.
Dogs are pretty much perfect Buddhists; they live almost entirely in the moment.
Anyway, that's why it is well-known among dog (and other animal) trainers that if you want to reprimand or praise a dog, you have to do it at the very moment the dog is demonstrating the behavior you want to influence.
Even four or five seconds later is far too late.
This is a very interesting topic. If you are up for it, wanna start a new thread on the subtitle I provided? I'd speak about it here, but I don't want to hijack Kuresu's thread.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 24 of 168 (379920)
01-25-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hyroglyphx
01-25-2007 6:51 PM


Re: Right and wrong
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
But you do fear reprisal, do you not? I'm speaking about civil law here.
No, not really. In the long run, positive reinforcement is more effective than negative.
I don't need no stinkin' "spiritual reprisals" to motivate me.
That seems to change often on people's death beds.
That's a myth. You'll probably find that people are more likely to abandon God and religion when they are sick or dying.
Even Jesus said, "My God, my God, Why hast thou foresaken me?"

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-25-2007 6:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 25 of 168 (379932)
01-25-2007 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
01-25-2007 3:14 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Ringo writes:
I don't believe for a second in "spiritual reprisal for wrong doing", but I do have specific resons for doing what's "right".
Nevermind the spiritual reprisals. WHY do you do what is right?
You have mentioned survival. Do you by instinct do what is right? When it comes to survival, you eat, you drink, you procreate, you take care of your children. I don't see animals having all of this problem about guilt when they lie and empathy for each other.
Why do you feel empathy for others? Why do we even have this stupid idea of right and wrong if it has no meaning?

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 Message 18 by ringo, posted 01-25-2007 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 01-26-2007 12:44 AM anastasia has replied
 Message 48 by Larni, posted 01-26-2007 7:58 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 26 of 168 (379934)
01-25-2007 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
01-25-2007 7:44 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Ringo writes:
You'll probably find that people are more likely to abandon God and religion when they are sick or dying.
Why would Jesus even speak to the Father if He has abandoned religion? Besides, I thought this was just words put ito Jesus' mouth to fulfill a prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 01-25-2007 7:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 27 of 168 (379937)
01-25-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
01-25-2007 7:02 PM


nator writes:
He knows that when there is pee in the house when you come home, you will get angry with him, but he's long ago forgotten that he was the source of the pee.
Dogs do 'know' that you will get angry when they pee, or that they aren't supposed to do it. That is why most well-trained dogs will hold it. It is all cause and effect, mental assosciations like with a baby. But I have to ask, why has the dog not forgotten all-together about the pee? What you are saying is that the dog will not have a good enough memory to remember that he peed, but will have a good enough memory to remember a less recent event like your anger.
Besides, all the dogs I've ever met know damn well the difference between their pee and someone else's

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 28 of 168 (379939)
01-25-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kuresu
01-25-2007 12:12 AM


kuresu, I am disappointed that you keep having the same misunderstandings of religion.
First off;
kuresu writes:
why is it that many people will only do the "right" thing because of a fear of their God(s)?
Why do you only do the right thing because of fear of your mother? Can't you do right because you love her? If right is right, it is. The only difference between you and I, is that I say right is part of God, and you don't. I say that all 'right' IS God, is part of God. You say that 'right' is part of you. It begins and ends with your opinion, and the opinions of people around you. That is a pathetic 'right' IMO. Don't you think ANYTHING is meant to be? Even if 'right' is a survival instinct, WHY? Are you denying your free-will? If 'right' is an instinct, you don't have free-will, anymore than you have free-will to breathe. People who claim that 'right' is an instinct, are forgetting that 'wrong' happens just as often, and is sometimes more beneficial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 12:12 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 8:46 PM anastasia has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 29 of 168 (379941)
01-25-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by anastasia
01-25-2007 8:39 PM


categorical imperative.
your question if I think anything is meant to be is interesting. does it depend on God? I don't think so. there's a thing called pure dumb luck.
and why must "right" be meant to be?
none of this answers, though, why people don't grow out of the "because I'm afraid" stage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by anastasia, posted 01-25-2007 8:39 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by anastasia, posted 01-25-2007 9:05 PM kuresu has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 30 of 168 (379945)
01-25-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kuresu
01-25-2007 12:12 AM


kuresu writes:
is doing the "right" thing just because it is, not motivation enough?
What make something 'right'? You can't say 'it just is' without giving it a reason why. If you have no reason, well, you know the old saying. Faith begins where reason leaves off.
I realize that we all go through a stage where this is the case. There is no doubt that I did the "right" thing when I was a young child because I did not want to be punished. Now, however, I do the "right" thing just because. why do many people never leave that original stage?
What if someone say 'I do the wrong thing just becuase it's the wrong thing'?
I have left the stage of doing things because my parents said so. I have left the stage of doing things because God said so. Rules are for stupid people who can't figure out what God or their mother would want, and who can't figure out WHY their mother or God told them to share their toys and tell the truth. Most people who have good use of their mental capabilities leave the stage of cause and effect, action and punishment, around the age of reason. At that point, they can decide for themselves if it is more fun to lie and steal, or if love for their parents and for 'right' will stop them from doing it before they even get caught. In the end, love leads to right. Love of God is no different. If you see someone hate in the name of God, you automatically feel repulsed, by them and their God. You are almost admitting that God exists by saying 'God can't be like that'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 12:12 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
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