Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christian Superhero Fred Phelps is no longer with us
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 31 of 52 (722450)
03-21-2014 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taz
03-21-2014 8:41 AM


Illogical? Here's the logical progression I've heard consistently from christians.
(1) It's sinful to have sex outside of marriage.
(2) Marriage is between a man and a woman.
(3) Therefore, gay sex is sinful.
(4) And because gay sex is sinful, gay people are required to live lonely lives all their lives.
Wow, what a perfect way to go around hating gay people without admitting to hating gay people. You love them, but you want to deny them the most basic human needs, the need for physical contact and the need to love. In my book, that's hate no matter how you want to put it.
Christians believe all humans uncategorically have sinned, gay or not. That is the basic premise of Christiananity.
From my experience with bigots, the first thing they tend to say is I have black friends or I have gay friends or whatever.
So now you are calling me a bigot and all Christians bigots. I am not going to entertain your obvious hatred and own bigotry to Christians. I love how some people on here employ the same behavior they speak out against.
Yes, I am equating christianity to the kkk. Just different sides on the same coin. The kkk is more direct with their hate. Christians try to be more politically correct.
Then all of humanity is one big ball of hate. Because I feel the hate you have for me and my religion. You are espousing the same thing.
Again, I believe in voting results, not some random dude on the internet. It's a travesty that the nation voted into the oval office a man that was a champion of anti-sodomy laws. And it's a sham that we still can't pass gay rights legislations without the courts.
I am not opposed to equal rights for gays. I am pro-equal human rights. Many other Christians feel the same way including Epscopalians, Methodists and others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:41 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 32 of 52 (722452)
03-21-2014 9:03 AM


Anyway, my rants aside, here's something I've always wondered about FP. Before he founded his hate church, he was an advocate for the civil rights movement. He specialized in protecting black protestors and such.
Here's my conspiracy theory. It occurred to me that he went over the top to push people away from being anti-gay. In other words, if this was the case FP might be the most noble man in the world. He made the world hate him to further gay rights attitude in society.

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ramoss, posted 03-21-2014 11:33 AM Taz has not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 33 of 52 (722453)
03-21-2014 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 8:26 AM


There are many, many Christians and Christian denominations who have spoken out against Fred Phelps. Most denominations have denounced him. I am sure some of the funerals Phelp's and his church protested at, were military members and families who were Christians. Christians on this board have denounced Phelps includng Faith and others. I have never met a Christian (or a non-Christian) who has said, "The Westboro Church is doing such a great service to God and country protesting those nast gays and the funerals of those military heathens". Really, honestly, have you heard this from most Christians? No, only from the fringe extremists.
I shouldve been more precise. I am not saying that peeps like Fred Phelps were supported by many but many others have been spoken about with an almost reverence. An example might be Jerry Falwell. Many xians (again not all) were of an opinion that he was an honest man of "The Good Book" when looking from the outside he was a horrible bigot.
I do not despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity. I was at one time agnostic. My parents as well as my sister are atheists. Again, you are using a broad brush to generalize all Christians. You are doing the very thing you denouncing. Overgeneralization.
I posted a link to justify my claims that were not directed at you but the religious community at large.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 12:58 PM saab93f has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 34 of 52 (722454)
03-21-2014 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 8:19 AM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
The Methodist Church has many gay members. Some denominations have gay pastors. Yes those people in those denominations really hate their gay pastors.
In my country, we had the curious example of the Reverend Ecclesia de Lange .
Gay marriages are legal here. The Reverend Ecclesia de Lange was a Minister of a Methodist Church, who announced that she wanted to marry her live-in girlfriend. Then she got disciplined.
From the source
In other words, the church was upset by the fact that she wanted to formalise her same sex relationship and that she was honest about this relationship with the members of her congregation. If she had been dishonest and had not announced her impending marriage to the congregation, she might never have been disciplined. This suggests that the Methodist Church was deeply hypocritical and essentially punished its ministers for being honest about their same sex relationships. And there I was, thinking that churches usually insisted on honesty and truth, not on deceit and subterfuge; that they insisted that people who love each other get married rather than live together without getting married.
I'm not too sure how this can be explained by a lot of Christians. For her to live with her girlfriend in the official church manse was OK (even a sin, but acceptable); but for her to marry was supposedly wrong (not acceptable).
So, I'm not too sure whether this constitutes hate against gays or not. It does point to a dislike of what gays do in the privacy of their homes. And to discrimination against some people. Discrimination usually subtly and not-so-subtly points to hate.
What does who she wanted to marry have to do with anyone else, anyway?
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:19 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 1:11 PM Pressie has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 35 of 52 (722455)
03-21-2014 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
03-21-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Christian Disapproval
So, you hate sex?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 03-21-2014 2:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 03-21-2014 3:24 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 36 of 52 (722470)
03-21-2014 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Taz
03-21-2014 9:03 AM


In that case, the best way to honor him is donate to your local LGBTQ organization (or national as the case might be), and donate in the name of the WBC in honor of his memory.
Donate in the name of the Westboro Church to the Gay place of your choice!
Westboro Baptist Church, 3701 SW 12th St, Topeka, KS 66604.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 9:03 AM Taz has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 37 of 52 (722486)
03-21-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by saab93f
03-21-2014 9:07 AM


An example might be Jerry Falwell.
Jerry Falwell has been dead for quite some time. Again, not all of Christainity agrees with Fallwell, Swaggart, Bakker and the like.
Many xians (again not all) were of an opinion that he was an honest man of "The Good Book" when looking from the outside he was a horrible bigot.
I don't really think that is true. Your painting with a big brush again. Most Christians I associate with and talk to have disdain for Fred Phelps and the Westboro church. Have you seen anyone on here praising Phelps? Can you provide me evidence which supports this idea?
posted a link to justify my claims that were not directed at you but the religious community at large.
You are still overgeneralizing and oversimplifying this whole thing. It would be like me saying that all atheists and non-believers are evil, satanic baby-killers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 9:07 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 03-21-2014 2:00 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 41 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 3:03 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 38 of 52 (722489)
03-21-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Pressie
03-21-2014 9:09 AM


Gay marriages are legal here. The Reverend Ecclesia de Lange was a Minister of a Methodist Church, who announced that she wanted to marry her live-in girlfriend. Then she got disciplined.
Yes, the United Methodist church has a position on gay marriage. They accept gays into their congregation just as with any other person. However, they do not accept gays into the ordained ministry. There is a kind of a rift in the opinions of many Methodist. Many Methodists support gay marriage (a Methodist minister in the US was defrocked because he officiated over the marriage of his gay son) i.e. the Reconciling Ministries Network and many others that do not.
Here is an excerpt on the UM's position on the matter:
As stated in the Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church holds that "homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth." In other words, all individuals are of worth to God. Nevertheless, in keeping with historic Church teaching, it considers the "practice of homosexuality [to be] incompatible with Christian teaching," For this reason, the "United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality" or allow "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" to be "certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."
I'm not too sure how this can be explained by a lot of Christians. For her to live with her girlfriend in the official church manse was OK (even a sin, but acceptable); but for her to marry was supposedly wrong (not acceptable).
Yes, that is how the UM sees it. I am not supporting it, that is just the view of the upper level leadership of the UM.
What does who she wanted to marry have to do with anyone else, anyway?
Because according to some, marriage is a conventent to God with another person. And some believe the Bible spefically speaks against homosexuality and that it is an act that God disdains.
My own opinion, is that this matter is between those two people and God. We all are sinful, fallen creatures and it is up to him to judge, not me. JMHO.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Pressie, posted 03-21-2014 9:09 AM Pressie has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 39 of 52 (722491)
03-21-2014 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 12:58 PM


It would be like me saying that all atheists and non-believers are evil, satanic baby-killers.
But there is no such thing as an evil, satanic baby killing atheist, is there? There ARE, however, large swaths of very vocal CHRISTIANS that hate gays, vote against equal rights for gays and call them abominations. Those people actually exist. But I can see why you'd want to compare them to people that don't actually exist: you think those people aren't "real christians" so you don't have to deal with the problem. Convenient.
I though you were better than this. Your religion is showing. This sort of comment shows you to be no better than those like Faith and Fred Phelps even though you think you are.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 12:58 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 3:40 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 40 of 52 (722495)
03-21-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
03-21-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Christian Disapproval
I would say that most Christians hate gay behavior--that is, fleshly stimulation between two consenting adults,
Worrying about what another man does with his dick is the third gayest thing you can do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 03-21-2014 2:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 41 of 52 (722500)
03-21-2014 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 12:58 PM


I don't really think that is true. Your painting with a big brush again. Most Christians I associate with and talk to have disdain for Fred Phelps and the Westboro church. Have you seen anyone on here praising Phelps? Can you provide me evidence which supports this idea?
This time I was referring to Falwell. There were swarms of people in his funeral praising what a great character he was. There were many notables there, those you can label mainstream xians, who just flat out lied or were just polite. Honest they were not...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 12:58 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 3:15 PM saab93f has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 42 of 52 (722502)
03-21-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by saab93f
03-21-2014 3:03 PM


This time I was referring to Falwell. There were swarms of people in his funeral praising what a great character he was. There were many notables there, those you can label mainstream xians, who just flat out lied or were just polite. Honest they were not...
Global religion statistics states there are a little over 2 billion Christian adherants in the world. You have one big paint brush.
Using one televangelist to judge an entire religion. Should I use Stalin or Mao to judge all agnostics or atheists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 3:03 PM saab93f has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 52 (722504)
03-21-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Theodoric
03-21-2014 9:11 AM


Free Will versus Submission
Theodoric writes:
So, you hate sex?
No.
What this debate is broadly about is the right of free will (to do whatever, as a consenting adult, with whomever) versus responsibility (from a Christian point of view) to either a higher power or a societal code of conduct. Yes, people have a right to behave however they choose, but they have a responsibility to behave in a responsible manner. Just because a man is attracted to another man does not necessitate sex.
Again, one side says that everyone has the right to decide for themselves what is moral while the other side attempts to legislate morality. That sums up the argument

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 03-21-2014 9:11 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by dronestar, posted 03-21-2014 4:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 50 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2014 12:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 44 of 52 (722505)
03-21-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by hooah212002
03-21-2014 2:00 PM


But there is no such thing as an evil, satanic baby killing atheist, is there?
No you missed my point. The logic fallacy sword you are using against Christianity is the same one you would have to use for atheism or non-believers. I don't agree with using this logical fallacy at all. That is my point.
ARE, however, large swaths of very vocal CHRISTIANS that hate gays, vote against equal rights for gays and call them abominations.
Yes, some Christians do this, and I and many other Christians disagree with them.
you think those people aren't "real christians" so you don't have to deal with the problem
I don't know if they or not. That is between them and God. I do deal with the problem. I and many other Christians have spoken out against them. One of the major Christian periodicals "Christianity Today" speaks out against Fre Phelps (Hate and How to Overcome It Ed Stetzer on ChurchLeaders.com). Many other Christian organizations speak out against Phelps.
I am tired of this double standard and hypocrisy of a few of you on here (Christians and non-Christians). I don't generalize all non-believers or atheists and say they are all evil.
You are angry because some Christians or supposed Christians commit wrongdoing and things that are morally objectionable. I agree with this moral outrage. A lot of other Christians disagree with this behavior and feel moral outrage at Phelps.
Yet, you group all Christians together like me as in the wrong because of the actions of a segment of other Christians. Should I lump all atheists as being evil because of Stalin’s actions? Stalin, Mao and other atheists have had their share of atrocities, but I don't link you and other non-believers with them. I don't even link atheism with their behavior because religious and non-religious people have had their share of atrocities. Hypocrisy and double-standards go both ways.
though you were better than this. Your religion is showing. This sort of comment shows you to be no better than those like Faith and Fred Phelps even though you think you are.
I was showing you that I don't believe in statements such as "It would be like me saying that all atheists and non-believers are evil, satanic baby-killers." I don't agree with this. You are taking my words and twisting them. I am showing you your hypocrisy by grouping all Christians or even all religious people as agreeing or associating themselves with people like Fred Phelps and others. I am telling you, you are dead wrong. There are many of us Christians out there that disagree and despise this behavior. You chose to ignore this and build up your strawman arguments and facades of what you think all Christians behave and do. Than if anyone states that all atheists are evil, you state you can't group all non-believers with Stalin, Mao and other notorious people who espouse atheism. It is a double edge logic fallacy sword and you are stabbing yourself with it. YOU Hooah, are being as illogical as Fred Phelps and others who denounce non-believers as "evil". I am not calling you an "evil, satanic baby-killers". I don't believe that. I am pointing out your logic fallacy of ascribing all Christians with the actions of a subgroup of Christians.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 03-21-2014 2:00 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 5:35 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 48 by hooah212002, posted 03-21-2014 7:02 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 45 of 52 (722508)
03-21-2014 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taz
03-21-2014 8:41 AM


1) It's sinful to have sex outside of marriage.
(2) Marriage is between a man and a woman.
(3) Therefore, gay sex is sinful.
Rather a strange logic. Gay marriage is rejected by Christians because the Bible reserves marriage for a man and a woman and because homosexual acts are sin. They are just as much sin whether married or not because there is no legitimate gay marriage in God's eyes, and in fact a marriage under the circumstances just compounds the sin because it violates God's ordinance of marriage.
(4) And because gay sex is sinful, gay people are required to live lonely lives all their lives.
I've known of many homosexual couples who have lived together their whole lives without thinking they had to be officially married. If the concern is loneliness marriage is not the solution to it.
It does seem to me that it would be extremely hard to be gay AND a Christian, though, if the Bible is read as it should be read, as condemning homosexual acts. Homosexuality is something that just happens to some people, I've never thought it was a choice as some think it is, but at the same time it is sin. It's a hard position to be in, but the solution of insisting it's not sin doesn't stop God from judging it as sin, you're just putting on a blindfold so you can't see it, and marriage only compounds the sin rather than solving the problem. Christians do have to give up sin, however. This includes some divorced (heterosexual) people I know of who understand scripture to say they cannot remarry, and I tend to agree with that reading of scripture. That's a hard one too.
Wow, what a perfect way to go around hating gay people without admitting to hating gay people. You love them, but you want to deny them the most basic human needs, the need for physical contact and the need to love. In my book, that's hate no matter how you want to put it.
Nobody is stopping them from living together, marriage is hardly necessary and if you're concerned about sin then marriage simply adds to the sin. It's an existential situation, it has nothing to do with how people feel about homosexuality. If the person is serious about Christ, however, then Christ has to become the love object that takes the place of all other love objects. There are certainly many single Christians who are not gay and are living for Christ alone.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:41 AM Taz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024